billbled

Hey all, Thanks for the replies! The shop here has an old Modis and Verus - so those are available. I did go on and get a Pico 2204A for myself - mainly just to get started into the PC scope arena and start tinkering. not a big hit financially, so that worked out well. I haven't really had to use a scope very much in my past, but we are seeing more CAN bus problems on the Class 8 non-Ford stuff here so I was curious as to what you all had to say - so thanks again for the input! Cheers, Bill

Was looking for an oscilloscope to hook to a laptop to measure CANbus signals and other general truck sensor measurements. Just curious what you all use? Recommendations? (The VMM deal from Ford isn't on the table on our end. We only have the VCM3 and I don't see them getting a VMM kit) Thanks for any feedback, Bill Bledsoe NC DOT (Ford fleet) Winston Salem NC

Sorry to be out of the loop on this - they've run me to other counties and I had some time off - anyway.... I did find the sister truck of this one - same mo/yr of mfr - VIN off only by a few and checked EGRTA on that one. Same exact results in IDS ..... -40F. No codes for it. And no actual sensor present either. So I guess that's normal on these trucks. On the problem child truck (the original subject of this thread), I tried doing a manual regen. It aborted due to overheating - code 1D (Upstream catalyst or DPF temp protection active). When the regen started the PID DPF_LOAD_PCT (%) was at 447. The regen aborted when EGT12 got to above 1,141F after about 6 minutes. EGT11 was 680F, EGT12 was 1,141F, EGT13 was 561F, EGT14 was 266F when I took the snapshot at abort. So I tried again, same result but the DPF LOAD got down to 337. Tried one more time, same 6 min abort and the DPF LOAD got down to 159. Also, during this the PID for DPF_SOOT_INF started at 2.777 and ended at 1.635. I test drove the truck after the 3rd aborted regen attempt and it drove OK with no MIL. So I sent it back to Roadside to put back in service and it hasn't been back. This is one of our spray trucks, so it goes out on the highway, and crawls the side of the road, literally at a walk speed, while they spray pesticides on the weeds and vegitation. I don't know if this type of useage is contributing to the problems. But there's not much "get out and run" time on this engine. It's mostly get to the stretch of road, crawl along the side, then drive back to the yard. Seems like a gas burner might have been a better choice for this particular truck. Anyway, thanks very much for the responses here I really do appreciate the input. I will update this thread if it comes back and has more on this DTC.

Got the truck back in - P2201 is back. And EGRTA is still showing up as -40F, even though none of us can find/see an EGRTA sensor actually on the truck.

Well.... stay tuned - the truck (so I'm told by the driver) "hiccuped" today and the MIL turned back on. So I'll see what fault it kicked this time - same or different. And I'll check on the EGRTA to see if it's still -40F. They're going to drop it off in an hour or so.

Keeping folks in the loop on an apparent conclusion to this - Sent the truck off yesterday after a successful test drive (no MIL and no pending faults) and it hasn't come back. It appears that the last round of NOx programming may have done it. First did 21E01 when it programmed the PCM and both NOx modules - then I replaced the front NOx (NOx11) sensor (21N02). Still no good. Got pending faults for P2201. Went back to run programming on the PCM again, mainly as a doublecheck, and it said the PCM was ok but both NOx modules had updates. It was like the NOx module updates needed updating, but the PCM update was ok. So I ran those and then had a successful (long) test drive. Hope this may help others if they travel the same path. Cheers, Bill

To answer: Do you remember when doing the PCM update if it asked if it is for a pickup or cab chassis? I am certain it did not. It DID however ask about the connector on the vent tube, whether it was grey with teeth or smooth and black - it gave me the warning about answering incorrectly could cause the Fed emission police to fast rope out of the ceiling etc etc. But it never asked about cab/chassis or pickup. Does the EGR Temp 1 sensor show up in the Pid data? Yes. What I get is EGRTA (Bank1 Sensor1) and EGRTC (Bank1 Sensor2). See attached. Was the reset/clear function performed after the new Nox? Yes. Also....I just re-ran the Module Programming function - and got a notice that now there is new software for the NOx modules (see attached). So I've completed that programming and am getting ready to drive the truck to see how it does. Will let everyone know when I get back.

Doing some more digging and found the attached pic in training material from a class a few years ago. It was in a 2015 6.7 supplement book. It says the EGRT11 sensor is pickup only - so if that's true, and it really isn't on the truck (which it looks like it's not - it's not at the location pictured on our truck) then WHY would any reading at all show up in Freeze Frame data? Any ideas? Thanks, Bill

Hi Glen, Thanks - We've seen the open FSAs - and have done 21N02 (I'm assuming that's what you meant as 21N01 is for an Explorer) and have also done 21E01 before that - so the PCM is programmed with IDS 128.05 and up to date. Also has a new NOx11 (front NOx) sensor installed. Still getting the P2201 after a test drive. The EGRT sensor you're referencing in the flex pipe - is it the one in the photograph attached? This is the source of my confusion - in the workshop manual on the PTS site, it says that one is EGRT12, and that EGRT11 (which measures -40F for me) is the one in the attached drawing (and I can/t find it on the engine). Our local Ford dealer even can't locate a parts reference for it (EGRT11) but it's there in the manual and I've got a reading for it in IDS. The manual does say "NOTE: Not all versions of the 6.7L diesel are equipped with an EGR Cooler Inlet Exhaust Gas Recirculation Temperature (EGRT) 11 Sensor." But I did see a reference that the cab/chassis trucks do have the second EGRT (EGRT11). Not trying to be a P.I.T.A. but wondering if anyone here has been down this specific road or has further info on which trucks do/don't have the other EGRT sensor. They all seem to have the one in the attached photograph I took - it's the other one that's messing us up. Thanks, Bill

Hi all, Truck: 2016 F-450 VIN: 1FD0W4HT6GEC57886 Mileage: 51,682 DTC: P2201 Going thru the checks in the pinpoint list, but listed in freeze frame data that caught my eye is: EGRT11: -40F EGRT12: 33.8F My question is on the EGRT11 sensor - I can't find it. I've got the drawings from the PTS site showing where it should be - but we're having a hell of a time finding the sensor. Has anyone been down this road? Is there actually an EGRT11 sensor on the truck? If there isn't - why is it listed in the freeze frame data and why at -40F if it isn't actually there? If it IS there, then there's a sensor/wiring issue because of the -40F reading (Central NC will never get this cold, barring another ice age). This reading stays at -40F even with the engine running. Any ideas or pointers? Thanks, Bill

Hey Mike, Ditto Keith's advice from above this post. Also, the range of numbers (for a correctly operating system) I've seen several times are what I had posted previously: "That brought the NOx back down to where it should be, i.e.: fully warmed up truck, on the highway, reasonably level ground, on cruise at 65mph, and we'll get about 40-80 PPM NOx at the tailpipe, sometimes less. Not the 300,400,500 or more PPM of NOx that we were getting." That's kind of been my standard test for this fault: warmed up truck, someone else driving, me monitoring PIDs, interstate travel, level ground, constant speed, and you should see 40-80PPM. On the bad DOC/DPF/SCR assy it was running at 500+ frequently, if not most of the time. But Keith is correct on working through the testing, and I like his idea of doing the dosing testing FIRST, while temperatures are civil and not sun-like. We still do the testing routine rather than just throwing a $3,000+ torpedo assy on it. Maybe Joe Rappa can chime in on this further, but he's got an exhaust sniffer that we used to verify that what was coming out of the exhaust **actually** lined up with the PID readings we were seeing, and it worked great. I don't think there are many diesel exhaust sniffers out there that measure NOx in real-time, but the one Joe brought and used worked great. It was helpful to know that the NOx emissions at the tailpipe really were screwed up and not just a software or PID error of some sort. A "second opinion" of tailpipe emissions. FWIW, Ford told me at one point that "life expectancy" on these torpedo assemblies was about 125k miles. I would suspect that varies greatly depending on useage, idle time, percent highway miles, etc. We have many IMAP trucks that have 200k on original torpedos, but they run highways and Interstates all day long.

Many apologies for forgetting this post. For those that are curious - the final resolution was to replace the entire SCR/DOC/DPF assembly (a.k.a. "the torpedo" - at least that's what we call it in our shop). That brought the NOx back down to where it should be, i.e.: fully warmed up truck, on the highway, reasonably level ground, on cruise at 65mph, and we'll get about 40-80 PPM NOx out the tailpipe, sometimes less. Not the 300,400,500 or more PPM of NOx that we were getting. Now for the details.... We purchased the SCR assembly right at 2 years ago from a local Ford dealership. When the problem started and we found the burnt up sections of the internal filter assembly, I made the pictures that I posted here and put them on a section of my personal website so the dealership guys could see. They wanted the truck back, with the defective SCR installed, so they could do their own diagnosis before replacing the filter under parts warranty. During the *weeks* that followed, as part of their "diagnosis", they put on 2 separate NOx sensors and modules trying to correct the excessive NOx coming out of the tailpipe. They did look at my pictures, but said they couldn't see what I saw when they went down looking with their borescope. (I find this amazing since I found the internal defects very easily seen...but whatever). They were certain the NOx sensor/module was to blame, even though we had told them that we had swapped out a known good NOx sensor/module and reprogrammed and it made no difference to the NOx output prior to us delivering the truck to them. After more time (weeks) - several message attempts at dealership management staff, and several "spirited" discussions - they finally decided to comply with what we had originally discussed and do a parts warranty on the SCR. And then the truck was fixed. Why did the SCR fail? Why did it have the burnt holes and melted sections? Nobody is really sure. One of the mgr's I spoke with looked the pictures and said he had seen 2 other units do that. I don't know if it really was a defect in the internal filter material, or some other defect in the filter assembly - just not sure. The truck that this is in is one of our IMAP trucks, which are the "Incident Management Assistance Patrol" trucks - they run up and down highways and interstates all day long helping with stranded motorists and wrecks and out of gas cars, etc. So they get a LOT of highway miles. All in all a complete P.I.T.A. - but I'm glad it's done. And thanks very much for all the feedback and help here - I truly do appreciate it. Apologies again for not posting the final outcome sooner. Cheers, Bill

Hey Joe, It's on one of our IMAP trucks which is a Chassis Cab (narrow frame) - so the order from front to back is DOC / DPF / SCR - and the DEF injector (handwritten note - is where I'm going down with the borescope) is right in front of the SCR (see attached JPG). We're currently working with the Ford dealership as it's still under its 2 year warranty, but the question we all have is *why* is it burnt? I'm with you on the photos looking like the DPF. I was wondering why I was seeing the grid and honeycomb, and not the red (in the JPG) DEF mixture swirl device (tornado?). Seems like I would've hit that first and stopped? Does the borescope go thru it and end up at the SCR catalyst? It was hard to tell on the screen as the camera was making its journey down the hole. Thanks, Bill

Hey guys, Thanks very much for the replys and interest - Some answers (I hope) to your questions: - Mode 6 data? Please help me out here - I'm not sure what that is. - Engine doesn't seem to be using an abnormal amount of oil. - We don't use any fuel additives - it's just bulk biodiesel out of the ground. Same fuel for the entire fleet. - I'm going to have to re-run the EGT 3/4 temp check while injecting. If memory serves, during test drives I saw EGTs around 400-480F - I know it ran up to over 1,000F during regen. - the max NOx I've ever seen is 900PPM - And .... this morning I took some pictures. SnapOn BK8500 scope going down the DEF injector hole. They're on my personal site (link below) - 17 photos.....found 2 holes burnt thru the screen/grid. I can't imagine that this is OK - but now I don't know why the holes are burnt - leads me back to an engine problem? This SCR catalyst only has about 40k miles on it. Pics are here: https://billbledsoe.com/IMAP_1498/ Thank you all so much for your time! --Bill

Hi guys, Advance warning - this is likely to be a long post about P207F. Apologies for the length, but I would really appreciate any input. Several techs have worked on this truck, now it's in my bay. One of our IMAP trucks (the "help me on the highway" trucks here at DOT) is really turning into a problem child. These trucks spend all day driving up and down highways and interstates helping motorists and crash situations. So they are either moving at 55mph or idling on the side of the road for an hour. The truck in question was born 5/2011, and has VIN 1FD8X3FT1BEC69479. It's a F-350, 6.7L, etc etc. Current mileage is 244,226 miles. Since we are a fleet customer (NC DOT), I have access to IDS, the PTS website, and the TEXA software from Diesel Laptops. I used to have access to the Ford technical hotline thru the PTS website, but no more. I was told that was too expensive and so they discontinued that. I thought it came with the PTS/IDS subscription, but I guess not. History: - 203,686 miles - they replaced #6 & #8 injectors for an engine knocking complaint. - 203,740 miles - it set a fault for #6 injector (P0278) and SCR below threshold (P20EE). They reprogrammed the PCM, and reprogammed fuel management, according to the R/O. - 203,980 miles - In for P20EE (again) and P207F. Replaced the NOx sensor & module, reprogram module, reset adaptations and drove. - 204,043 miles - CEL on again, P207F, replaced DEF pump (failed dose test) and drained/refilled DEF tank. Checked DEF - 32%. - 204,502 miles - back again P20EE, P207F - replaced DEF injector, removed U & L intake and decarbon, replaced EGR core and cleaned EGR valve, did SCR drive cycle, fault returned, contacted Ford tech hotline (was able to at that time, can't now) - replaced SCR catalyst assy (a.k.a. "torpedo"), reset all adaptations and monitors, test drove. Measured NOx went from avg 700-900PPM to avg 30PPM after torpedo replacement. - 244,226 miles - present day - P207F returns, and JUST P207F - no other faults present. Avg NOx is all over the spectrum. I've seen 300-450 all the way up to 900PPM. At normal op temp, under cruise control at 55mph, I'll see it swing from 250-400PPM avg. I've tried: - manual, stationary, regen - manual, dynamic, regen - regens were not needed according to IDS (percentage-wise) but did them anyway. - reset DPF parameters - swapping NOx sensor and module with another truck (same vintage) and no difference. - reset NOx adaptations - injector dose test (47mL) - DEF test with refractor - measured 32% - SCR injector was clean - no crystals seen. - PCM programming is current - air filter is OEM and not very dirty Questions: - I'm starting to wonder if two things: 1- Is the engine producing too much NOx for the catalyst to reduce? If so, this indicates an upstream engine problem. or 2- Has the SCR catalyst gone bad? Seems unlikely to me. Way too soon. But if so, that's dissapointing for as much as it costs and I would hope it would have some kind of above normal warranty coverage - but haven't checked. Thanks for reading all this- if anyone has more ideas I'm all ears. -Bill