Keith Browning Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 I am going to the LCF new model training next week 6/1 & 6/2 Aside from what I am supposed to be learning there, what information do you think I should try to extract from the training engineers? Are there any questions you guys want to suggest that I can ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 1, 2005 Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 In a discussion about the cancellation of a light duty diesel engine for the 1/2 ton trucks I was shocked to learn that Ford HAS not one but TWO 4 cylinder diesels basically ready to go and they will be putting them in cars. Yes, I said cars! You will not see these engines or the 6.4 Power Stroke until low sulfur fuel is in full use - no earlier than 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTechCA Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 im not surprised they have more diesels in the works. last trip i had to school i found that more hybrids are in the works too. the Focus,500 and possibly a truck(Ranger or F150) are in the plans. if they can make the 4cyl diesel get 30+ mpg it should sell. did they say if they were turbo diesels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpatron Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 When I was doing 6.0L training in Argentina, they had a 4-cyl., 2.8L Powerstroke in the four-door Rangers. They were equipped with a common-rail injection system like the 6.9l. They were also equipped with the VGT. Those engines probably would not pass emissions regulations here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 I don't know if they are turbo diesels. The instructor gave no details on the engines and I think the fact that he mentioned it was kind of a slip. He mentioned it in answering about the cancellation of the new engine. I would guess that they would very likely be turbo diesels for the mere fact that who would want to drive a diesel car without one? From what I I have been reading and hearing all over is that after the low sulfur fuels are here we will be seeing more diesels in everything. Hey - Welcome to our forums mpatron! What the heck were you doing teaching in Argentina? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 There are several 4 cyl diesels being tested but they arent going to be put in cars in the near future. They are being used as aftertreatment(exhaust) mules for an upcoming diesel program. Diesel cars may be in the works but definitely not before '09. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 4, 2005 Author Share Posted June 4, 2005 Cool Avatar! So the rumor mills in Ford chop up facts too? Man, I have heard so many different things lately! I suppose it just shows how a lack of information can turn into a breeding ground for mis-information. I actually think your statement is the most correct given the emissions compliance problems and research dealing with the new fuels. I do think that once diesels get really clean and if they can perform some auto maker should make them broadly available in their line of cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 Unless something changes soon, I dont see how anyone is going to sell a light duty diesel in a car. The exhaust system is so expensive with all the new components required to meet emissions. Who is going to spend an extra $3000 to get a diesel? Especially if it requires adding a second item to the tank like urea. Imagine having identical focuses on the lot one is $15,000 and the other is $18,000. Even if the mileage increases to 50mpg do you think the average customer is going to be willing to pay the difference? With the cost of diesel just going up with the introduction of LSDF and the hassle of a possible second chemical needing to be added to the tank I think we would have to sell the car at a loss to get them off the lots. I just dont see how it makes any business sense Maybe if CAFE increases and it is our only option but with the upcoming hybrids I doubt its going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 Who is going to spend an extra $3000 to get a diesel? Well, How much extra are people willingly forking out to buy an Escape hybrid? They do cost substantially more than a standard engine option and how much is the diesel engine option for a Super Duty? But that is a good point where the average car buyer is concerned - especially keeping a bottle of "pee" in the trunk! This is what I can determine from looking around and comparing... [*]Added cost to Escape for Hybrid option: around $6900 [*]6.0L Power Stroke engine option for Super Duty trucks is: $5100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I am not sure about the price difference, that seems a little high to me, I thought it was more like $3000-$4000. But in any case people who buy hybrids are buying them because of the illusion of saving the environment something the diesel will never get. The majority of the people who buy diesels for pickups are buying because they make more sense for the type of use they need them for. They are willing to pay more to get the added longevity(at least in the 7.3 ha ha) and a bit better mileage over that course of miles. I am definitely all for a diesel focus in the US. I have put a few of miles on the Focus C-Max and it pulled really strong, had way more room than my present car and averaged 50mpg(mostly highway). I just dont think it is worth the initial cost for Ford to introduce something that is a low-volume low-profit car. That is not what we need right now. Maybe they could sell alot if they could package it as a high performance option with the high output diesel from Europe and great mileage. Similar to what VW did with their SUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Most of the hybrid vehicles get a one time $2000 tax deduction yet for those bought this year. One company I read of, Hyperion Solutions(software company), will give any employee $5000 to buy and drive a hybrid vehicle. That certainly closes up the cost gap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 I checked on the vehicle locator and searched for the highest price limited 4wd vs the highest price hybrid and found around $3000 difference. For that price there are a couple differences but all in all the same vehicle with a bit better mileage and poorer performance. Does anyone know how the Liberty diesel is selling vs the gasoline model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 Hmmm, I compared the base model Escape $20,070 (4cyl 4spd auto trans) with the base Hybrid model $26,900 (4cyl hyb CVT trans) to come up with my figure. Pricing the hybrid is difficult because it's not priced like an option as was the diesel engine for the F-Series. I used Edmund's for the prices. The gap is closer going about it using the high end models which is how you did it? I guess it depends on how you look at it! Pricing the Liberty was not very easy for comparison purposes. They offer "style packages" so you have to compare like vehicles in each of the two styles that offer the 2.8 turbo diesel. I used the 3.7L for comparison so if you use the 4cyl and manual trans combo, the difference is greater. I come up with a $1600 to $2000 difference on 4dr. 4X4 Sprt and Limited packages. So for the sake of the debate shall we call it $1800? Not too bad! But like you mentioned, what's it gonna take to make that engine meet upcoming emissions standards? Your point in all of this is coming out loud and clear Cetane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTechCA Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 you cant compare the price of a hybrid escape to a 4 cyl non hybrid version. you have to compare to an equally built V6 escape. everything ive been told is the Hybrid has about the same power as the V6. a couple of instructors at the training center out this way took the hybrid and a V6 and drag raced. the Hybrid kept up with the V6 very easy. V6 power with better fuel mileage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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