Brad Clayton Posted June 22, 2007 Share Posted June 22, 2007 We got our hands on the brand new egr service tool from BG. This thing is slick. works like this: Warm truck up, remove EGR valve, install adapter plate over EGR port, place tool adapter with a built in fuel injector (looks like an old gas inj.) into EGR adapter plate, remove cold cac tube from intake elbow and place block off plate over elbow to restrict air flow (prevents run aways), pour chemical into a injection cylinder same style as induction services for gas jobs and attach to injector (has nice little fittings), run engine at 1000 rpms and apply 60 psi to cylinder. The injector has a timer module wire to it to inject the chemical in every 15 seconds. Let run for 45 minutes to empty the cylinder which holds 1 quart. Shut truck down and remove cylinder then block off the egr port and install the injector assy into the throttle elbow. This has a really neat setup that happens very quickly, sorry no pics, I mean this is a really well thought out unit. Again fill the container with more chemical and hook to injector, add another cleaner to the crankcase and run engine at 1200 rpms for 45 minutes. Truck will smoke like a bastard so I did it outside and worked on another car while waiting. After cylinder empties shut truck down and remove components, reinstall egr valve that i cleaned while waiting and cac hose then run for 15 minutes at 1500 rpm to get all chemicals out of intake system, drop the oil and put in fresh, put additive in tank (looks like 44k) rip it down highway and your done, gotta clear the codes set though. The main drawback is it's expensive, 4 part chemical pack costs the dealer $100 and they pay the tech 3 to 4 hours. We are at 72 dollars an hour so it's between 400 and 500 dollars for the service. I saw it in action and the intake was spotless inside, really neat tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGLR13MWZ Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Does it require a new oil filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselD Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 interesting. however did you repair the issue of why it was getting coked up? idle time? fuel quality? services? short drive cycles? egr cooler leaks? It can be the cleanest in the world but coke back up if the cause isnt found. I can see a customer paying for the service then in 6months having the same issue and trying to sell another service. he wont be too happy to have to pay 500-600bucks to clean in intake every 6months. just make sure you get the root cause fixed first. I have seen trucks with plenty of miles on them with no coking problems what so ever. To get to the point just make sure you are sure there are no other problems with the truck and the maintance is kept up on. *stepping off soap box* /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 I dunno... I've sat through countless miracle demonstrations for all manner of automotive chemicals... even been "wowed" by them the odd time..... until sanity settles back in. If I look into the intake manifold and see it is clean, I start to wonder about the EGR cooler.... As it is, my skeptical side is vibrating like a mad pimp. So let's analyze the process a little. First, we know there will be an "up front" cost in tooling... Sorry, my experience has shown this is usually cheap crap in a glitzy case.... overpriced, for sure, but this cost needs to be amortized into the price of the service. Cost of product for one service is in the neighbourhood of a C-note.... remembering that the parts department is probably going to purchase this for less and sell it to the shop at a profit... the cost of the chemical pack being amortized into the cost of the service. Now... the tech gets paid between 3.0 and 4.0 to do the deed. How much real time is actually spent on it? I'm getting the feeling that there is a lot of "gain" time in this process. "Some" gain time should (after study) show us techs that work smart... methodical, disciplined.. maybe they break a sweat. If there is "a lot" of gain time, I have to wonder if the customer isn't getting raped.... As you can tell, I don't abide flushes easily. Yes, I like to earn money (notice I said "earn" and not "make"). All too often, we will see department managers resort to some unique methods to improve the numbers they show to their boss.... To make the tech feel better (and to encourage the tech to sell the service), the gain time can be "significant". For me, that is bothersome. One of my dreams in life is for this trade to earn the respect, trust and admiration it deserves.... I guess the bottom line is "Would you pay someone that kind of money to do that service on your truck?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 IT is nice to hear that the BG EGR flush works. I was told by our BG demonstrators that this was in the works. Now I will crank up the cynicizm... cuz I am skeptical of most, not all but most of these services. Given the facts you provided, most notably: "4 part chemical pack costs the dealer $100 and they pay the tech 3 to 4 hours. We are at 72 dollars an hour so it's between 400 and 500 dollars for the service" has got to be the most assinine thing I have heard to date. Having the entire intake manifold sparkly clean is neither necessary nor worth the money as there is always going to be traces of carbon lining the intake that have absolutely no effect on performance. The main issue with the EGR valves is the localized trapping of carbon at the upper port of the valve and the area immediately surrounding the mixer. This is what causes driveability concerns from sticking EGR valves and low flow conditions. I, in my most profoundly honest professional opinion, think that the manual scraping of carbon build-up and cleaning off with carburetor cleaner not only effective, it only takes up to 30 minutes depending on the severity of the build-up. Why would anyone in their right mind waste 4-5 hours doing something they can do in less than one? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif And I also stress the point that finding the root cause of the excessive carbon build-up is extremely important! Doing so would be a more constructive use of four hours and provide a more complete "service" to our customers... don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted June 23, 2007 Author Share Posted June 23, 2007 Everyone statements are good points and well taken. As far as getting to the root causes, our customers in vermont must have the worst driving habits and we must sell the crappiest fuel in the whole of North America, due to some serious coking issues we deal with. I do agree with you guys on the cost and time and I am not trying to push BG products (although I use every service we sell in all my personal vehicles 4 total), but I did like the tool and the presentation for what it was worth. All BG equipment is supplied free of charge no cost to user. They "lend" it to you according to how much product you move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Jim Your stand against "gain time" presents a question? Why would a tech work flat-rape if they are going to be restricted on the amount of "gain time" they can make? I've worked with several techs in independant shops & dealerships that were regularly hitting 70+ hrs per week...I had difficulty breaking 45 and was working 54 at the Indy's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 I'm not against gain time.... depending. If a tech finds gain time by working smart, I'm all for it.... Too many techs find gain time by screwing somebody over - and this is going to become a repeat repair.... and an unhappy customer. A quick look at TDS indicates that there are techs out there that just don't get it..... Listening to the tech time broadcasts shows that there are techs out there that just don't get it. We can't deliver this shit to our customers. In our own store, I have some "menu" prices that I would reduce... except for the fact that we are cheaper than our local independant stores for the same service. However, I <AM> against raping the customer... can anyone justify getting paid two or three times what a job is worth? It's not about US.... We should be grown up enough to take care of ourselves.. It is about our customers.... For the first three years, they nearly "have" to come to us.... This is our opportunity to make them feel like they "want" to come to us after the warranty period has expired. SHIT!!! Why are we even having this fucking conversation??? What do we deserve as "gain time"? Why is there "gain time"? Who amongst us deserves gain time? Did we fix it right? Did we do it the first time? Did we change a rear main seal that was dry simply because that's what we quoted for some misbegotten reason? It's not about <US>.... it is about what we send out the door... it is about our customers and what they think of us.... Fair wage for knowledge/performance = yes.... raping customers = no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 flmmaz.... I invite you to spend a winter where I live.... The biggest concern with diesel owners at this point in time is the number of owners that bought a penis extension rather than the car they needed. These guys will be plagued with these concerns for the life of their truck. I get the feeling that your shop sells a lot of flushes of various kinds.... not my cup of tea and they go a long way towards instilling distrust in our trade.... I have made my stance clear with my bosses.... I will not abide chemical solutions (flushes) to concerns that cannot be corrected. (In our area, using a diesel as a grocery getter). Wynns, BG and others come up with things that look good in the sales presentation but have little value in the real world. All these services are designed for is to generate revenue. I firmly believe that each time we do a "flush" we lose that little bit more of our credibility... we aren't helping our customer, we are padding our nest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted June 24, 2007 Author Share Posted June 24, 2007 I understand your point clearly and I apolagize for getting everybody in an uproar, it will not happen again scouts honor. Any good snowbaording up your way, if so I could take you up on your offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 I for one am not in an uproar. Some of us may have been nipping at the Seagram's but I was gleefully sharing my thoughts with a smile. You did see me smiling didn't you? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Now where did I leave my friggin beer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Jim I was just poking-the-bear. I pretty much agree with you on the whole flush situation. That's exactly how those guys turned 70+ hrs week after week. Rape & pillage and laugh about it if you brought it up. As for "gain time" if we got paid hourly like we should, it wouldn't be an issue...hourly plus incentive is the only other fair pay plan IMO. Sorry for the hyjack... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Don't get me wrong, flmmaz.... When I open my mouth, the very things I am thinking fall out. No animosity, no anger.... no uproar.... A long, long time ago, I tried a very short stint of selling Wynns Extend. I was taken in by the presentation in the shop and thought this stuff was the best thing since phone sex. Once they showed me how to present the product, I fell out of love. They did go through great pains to tell me how to handle nay-sayers. It was about that time that I started to doubt some of the claims made and, as a salesman, I failed miserably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Jim, I agree with you about 90%. I believe just like you that the egr flush thing is a total waste of money on the shops behalf and the customers. You must always fix the root cause of the concern. Most of the time that results in educating the jackass behind the wheel on how to operate his chipped up, jacked up, juiced up friggin diesel properly and it is not a good thing to idle these friggin things out at the rig site from evening to morning so that his heated friggin seats are nice and toasty friggin warm just to keep his fat friggin ars from getting hemroids! And I can't stand places that use flushes as fixes, because there is no such damn thing as a "mechanic in a can". However, if you are in a flat rate industry you must buy flat rate tools to do flat rate jobs efficiently and high quality tools to do high quality jobs. They both go hand in hand. A little off the diesel subject: you can use a garden hose and a sh!t load of time to flush a cooling system inefficiently or you can buy a Wynns Extend coolant flush machine that flushes the entire system including heater core and every single coolant passage in the engine. A garden hose is not very efficient if you get where I,m going with this. Same for transmission flushes: the Wynns machine is incredible. You are flushing the entire transmission, torque converter, cooler lines and cooler itself. A 100% flush of all chemical in the system verses a partial flush that leaves crap still in the system. Anyway, my point is that there are some really good pieces of flush equipment out there for doing "manitenace" only. And flushes in some cases are a really good thing for PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE! But flushes should never be considered a FIX! Damn, I'm almost as long winded as you are Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Lew.. I just get real defensive with this trade, any more.... I don't know if we can ever "fix" it since so many things have become accepted practice... I can set the expected standard in my shop... but I can't do that in every shop. The best I can do is offer "food for thought".... I am just abrupt enough that some folks can take me the wrong way.... FWIW... in my shop, I use what I learned both in my years in the trade as an entrepreneur and what I learned taking instructor courses with our fire department... "Fail forward". Mistakes are there to be made. Good judgement comes from experience.... unfortunately, experience comes from poor judgement. "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" - Jessica Rabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 I hear ya. One other point I forgot to mention was that some of these pieces of equipment can give you gain time with a high quality outcome. But I don't believe that would be true in the EGR flush case. High quality diag and repair is needed more than an intake manifold enema! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordTechCA Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 roflmao, i cant believe BG actually did it. i remember a year or so ago when the rep came to me telling me BG was trying to figure a way to do the EGR cleaning and i laughed at him and told him he should go tell the clowns at BG they are wasting their time. i guess in no time they will be coming to our shop buying us lunch to show us how to use a machine i'll refuse to use. no matter how hard you try you just cant fix stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Did they tell you that they were developing this tool with Ford? That is what they told me! I was laughing on the inside yesterday as I was replacing a previously cleaned valve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 I heard that rumor flying around and thought it was humerous myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 I thought that when the BG guy told me bout the EGR cleaner ( said we'd have one this january ) it would be a good thing, then the more i thought bought it, it would just sit in the corner next to the BG diesel fuel injector cleaner. I do thought use the MOA oil additive with my oil change in my car because ive read and heard nothing but good JUST FROM THE MOA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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