Miguel351 Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Hey all, I was curious what you guys were doing about the new TPMS stuff. It's never been an issue for me since we only do the E-series stuff, but all the '08s have it now. Is there any way to reprogram the SJB to accept any other pressures than the 55psi for the front and 80psi for the rear? We swap out with tires that have a higher load rating than factory, but they have a max pressure of 65psi. So the TPMS light will be probably on all the time since we'd only have 5psi of room before the lower limit kicks in and trips the error code for the light. I know you guys mainly do the trucks and a lot of them get aftermarket wheels/tires so I was just curious how you guys were approaching it. I have both the PDS and IDS but I've lost the IDS to laptop cable(I don't think it walked off by itself), so I haven't used IDS in a while to see if it has some option for that. Plus PDS handles pretty much everything we need for the E-boxes so I haven't had that strong of a need for IDS. I do keep them both updated to their current versions, too. I assume the IDS works in conjunction with tool ST2941-A(OTC 204-363) as spec'd in the manual, but I was unsure as to the scope of what it does beyond simple activation. Anyone care to enlighten me? Please? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance! -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 ON EDIT! This post was completely unnecessary so I deleted it because you already know this. Now that I read the thread over again I "get" what he's talking about! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif WOW! I am wiped out tonight. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/tired.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Kieth, the big concern is if there is a "need" or desire to air the tires down... We have some customers that don't like having their truck ride like a...... well, ride like a truck. And they like to air the tires down to 40ish even. So far, we have seen that the F series wants to see minimum 65 PSI in all four... and the system wont take anything less for a value.... This has become where we adjust tire pressures on a PDI... and the system will not take 64 for an answer. For me, it's not a big deal.... There's always been at least one truck in my driveway and I don't mind it when they ride like a truck.... Others, however, find this system to be more bother than safety feature.... FWIW, seems like a rare occurance to go anywhere and not notice at least one unit on the road with at least one low tire - most people NEED TPMS.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 FWIW, seems like a rare occurance to go anywhere and not notice at least one unit on the road with at least one low tire - most people NEED TPMS.... Sorry to highjack the thread, Buuut, pretty soon people in this world will need GPS systems just to find their asses to wipe and then they will need some sort of remote control Canada Arm like the space shuttle has to actually wipe their assess. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 So far, we have seen that the F series wants to see minimum 65 PSI in all four... Are you sure of this? I take it on your experience that this is true. I just read up on this and didn't notice anything mentioning that... unless I missed it. I know I have set some vans at 60 PSI. Anyway,, this would not be a function of the sensors but rather the vehicle. I'll have to play with this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Early in the run of these trucks, it "seemed" like 65 was going to be the magic number... Today, I had an apprentice play with the pressures on a brand new unit.... 60 PSI gave the low tire light.... 62 ditto, 64 the same.... 65 turned the light out.... and I assume that we will have a lot full of low tire lights when the weather turns a little colder.... Notice that retriaing the sensors will not turn the light out - you have to drive the truck to wake the sensors up and have them communicate with the SJB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel351 Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 That's just it. I don't know if the SJB can be reprogrammed on the vans to accept 55psi or 60psi as it's new default. I know the blue sensors are 50psi and up range(truck), so I know they're capable of the full reading range we'd need. It's just kind of dumb since we're upgrading the tires/wheels to something more capable and safer to be hindered by the TPMS. As for Ford's need for it....I see it as a "cover your a**" situation after the whole Explorer/Firestone fiasco. As I recall, Firestone concluded the main cause of all the failures was underinflation. You know all those soccer moms out there never perform ANY kind of maintenance on their cars. Anything further? -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel351 Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Anyone had any luck reprogramming the "acceptable" PSI values in the SJB/PCM? Just kind of curious since I'm trying to avoid buying another $300 cable for the IDS-to-laptop just to find out we don't actually need it. Besides, the PDS does everything else we need just fine by itself. -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 The best thing about TPMS is all the lazy f*#ks doing PDIs on Super Dutys have to actully set the tire pressure or the lite will come on while driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 19, 2007 Share Posted November 19, 2007 What? You don't get to perform the PDI's on the trucks in your store? There's no way I would let that happen! I will agree with you that now guys who do a piss-poor job on PDI's now have one little watchdog looking over their shoulder. I cant tell you how many trucks come in for their first service with tire pressures at 50 PSI all around. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif That pisses me off like you wouldn't believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordtech Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Good evening all, Although I've just entered the diesel world,the TPMS has been around for at least 5 years, with 3 very different systems. The first systems used WSS data from the ABS module.The next system used pressure sensors integrated with the valve stem, battery powered using radio signals;suseptible to corrosion and damage from unknowing tire changers.The third system is similar to the above but is strapped to the inside of the wheel assembly with a very long hose clamp(there are probably ten different sizes). I've had several vehicles that "just came from the body shop" and my tire lite is on.The body shop also changed the damaged tire and wheel assembly, and ooops, threw out the TPM sensor with the damaged wheel.Then the customer is livid because he is charged $100.00 to install a new sensor. But I digress. What really ticks me off is writing up a repair order for a "tire lite on". Now I don't mind if it is included with a LOF or other service,but try to get paid for adjusting the tire pressure,not to mention wasting the dealerships resources for writing up the RO. Thank you for letting me vent.....I do feel better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Thank you for letting me vent.....I do feel better! We do love to vent here but in this Forum, we do it with style! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif One thing I am curious about is the original poster's problem. I have to admit that like many of us here that work on all or mostly trucks the TPMS is all new to me. What sets the limit imposed by the system? The control module or the sensors themselves? There are different vehicles using this system that have much lower tire pressure specs to IF you wanted to how would you change it? Now I realize the system exists for a reason and would never suggest lowering the lower pressure threshold for obvious safety and legal reasons - at this point I'm simply curious as to which component dictates this. Now, if these beachcombers in their 4X4 vans want to lower the tire pressure for beach travel I understand. The light on the dash is not that annoying and serves to remind the driver to re-inflate his tires afterward. I think this "dillema" could easily be spun into a positive selling point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 The current crop of TPMS uses the SJB as the "mother" module. It is here that the thresh-holds are programmed. Something I am beginning (or think I'm beginning) to notice. We had a truck (SuperDuty) in for a PDI... tire pressure spec was the same front and rear.... this truck did NOT come with a fob.... Those trucks that spec a different pressure front to rear, DO come with a fob. Time and experience with either prove or disprove this assumption. Those trucks that spec a different pressure front to rear will live with the rear tires set at the (lower) front tire pressure.... Sign me "confused". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel351 Posted November 27, 2007 Author Share Posted November 27, 2007 Thanks for the responses, guys. In my further studies of the TPM systems that Ford uses, they are not meant to be reprogrammable with respect to PSI. Where this is an issue is when we put larger wheels and tires on (a la 35" tires on 18" rims) the E350's. Most 35's max PSI rating is nowhere near 80PSI, which is what the SJB demands from the rear. But, because it's programmed into the SJB, it's unavoidable. Most 35's have a 65PSI max and seem to be happiest at 55PSI for highway travel. This, in turn, trips the light. And we're talking load range E tires with a higher weight capacity, so technically, we're exceeding factory specs. That's whay I was curious to see what you truck guys were doing if you had customers that bought/wanted bigger wheels and tires than stock. The sensors themselves aren't the issue, just the SJB. Apparently the 55/80 front/rear combo is across the board with all Econolines regardless of model(passenger, cargo, wagon, SD, etc.). It's extremely interesting to me that there are truck models that have the same PSI call out at all four corners! That's got to be some sort of stripped down F150. Like I said before, too, I only use the PDS here in our shop because it does everything we need since we don't do any major warranty work ourselves(we're fleet and have two supplying/partner dealerships) and was curious if the SJB could be programmed with the IDS. I know somewhere, somebody is doing something because of all the "tricked out" stuff I see at dealerships on brand new trucks. They're puting on the same kinds of wheels/tires that we do so I KNOW they're running into the TPMS stuff we are. In the interim, I went to the SEMA show in Vegas and found a very inexpensive, effective, programmable, and attractive "piggyback" TPMS system. http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/orange/tpms.jsp Seems to a workaround for the factory system, yet satisfying the FMVSS and NHTSA rulings for manufacturers and TPMS systems. We'd be getting them factory direct for cheaper than Tire Rack's price. Seems like a cheap cure for our TPMS headache. -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ablokzyl Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 So if you use this piggyback system, are you gonna disable the factory TPMS system? Because the light will still be on in the instrument cluster. If you are gonna disable it, how are you gonna do it without any lights or message center messages?.......just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I have been thinking about whether or not to post anything regarding this topic because I cant really tell you how to do anything. If you were to put a new SJB in a truck, are there two different part numbers with respects to with or without TPMS? If there is only one part number how does the module know what the pressures are supposed to be or even if the truck has TPMS? Just a thought..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 How about getting as built data for a similar vehicle that isn't equipped with TPMS, and forcing that as built data into the vehicle that is equipped. It might be worth a try anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 What? You don't get to perform the PDI's on the trucks in your store? There's no way I would let that happen! I will agree with you that now guys who do a piss-poor job on PDI's now have one little watchdog looking over their shoulder. I cant tell you how many trucks come in for their first service with tire pressures at 50 PSI all around. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif That pisses me off like you wouldn't believe. I bought a new car and immediately checked all fluids, tires, etc. The tires were all at 24lb but the light wasn't on. I went on a trip, got some cold weather, and the TPMS light went on. I rechecked the tires twice and they were fine and continued on my trip. Later I unbolted the spare to find it at 20lb. PDI? What's that? Grrrrrr. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 How about getting as built data for a similar vehicle that isn't equipped with TPMS, and forcing that as built data into the vehicle that is equipped. It might be worth a try anyway. Thats the short way of what I was getting to.....Has anyone tried it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I have done As build data forcing before. The main thing is finding a VIN number for a vehicle that is ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL in all other respects except for it not being equipped with TPMS (same year, option package, number of doors, EVERYTHING). Then you run oasis on the VIN and click on the as built tab and print off the sheet with all of the module addresses and corresponding data. Open a new IDS session and go into module programming section. If there is an as built data option, go with that. If the only options are (module reprogramming) and (Programmable module installation), you will have to shoot the folks at hotline an email asking for the secret IDS code of the day for doing an As Built force. Once you have it, hook up ids and start a new session. Click on the IDS tab, on the upper left, then click on the Swiss army knife tab on the bottom left. Click update / special function and key in the secret code that hotline gave you and hit the tick button. At that point you will get kicked out of the screen and think that nothing happened, when in fact something DID. Go back into your vehicle session. Go into programmable module installation, click the module that is responsible for dealing with TPMS on your vehicle, weather it be the IC or the SJB ect. What will happen now is the IDS will mysteriously not be able to recognize the module and ask you to manually enter the As Built data (that is what the secret code unlocks for you). Select yes, and a screen will pop up with a module address that corresponds to one on your as built data sheet. Enter the Data EXACTLY as you see it on your sheet and follow the on screen instructions. If that does not work, you will have to return the vehicle back to normal by entering the proper as built data for the correct VIN. It is possible that there is no such thing as an identical vehicle without TPMS, and if that is the case, you will have to REALLY think outside the box. One idea that might be fun to experiment with: Go to your local Lawn and Garden store and get a small pneumatic lawn tractor tire and wheel. Dismount the tire and drill 3 extra valve stem holes in the wheel. Put ALL 4 of your TPMS sensors in that wheel, remount the tire and air it to 55 psi. (Make sure you buy one that can handle that pressure). Go through the TPMS initialization procedure for your vehicle as per the workshop manual, and throw that little tractor tire assembly somewhere in the luggage compartment of your vehicle. Hell, it doesn't even need to be a real tire, you could go to a hardware and get a threaded 3 inch pipe with 2 caps, drill 4 holes in it and mount your tpms sensors, seal it up and pressurize it to spec. That way the computer can see 55 psi on all 4 sensors, but you can air your actual vehicle tires to whatever you want. I have yet to try it, but might work. If it does not though, you will only be out the price of a lawn tractor wheel or some plumbing supplies, and of course your time. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 OR, if your vehicle requires different pressures front and rear to make it happy, you may need to build 2 such devices with 2 sensors in each one and pressurize accordingly. This will ofcourse only work on the style system with the sensor on the valve stem. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flamethrower.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 IF (and thats a big if) it even works at all that is. Either way this is way too much rigging for a customer, its more of a personal vehicle kind of hardware update idea. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/readthis.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I havent used a dealer scan tool in many years but that procedure seems about right. I sure am glad I dont have to go through all that just to program these modules. Based on the comments, I am assuming you do not have a "map" that shows what the as built data means. The trucks dont have to be optioned that close but if you are working blind that would be the best way. I have heard of people making pressure vessels and throwing the sensors into it but I havent seen the hardware so who knows if any of it is true. I am curious to hear if anyone actually tries the as built data method and gets it to work. None of my trucks have TPMS so I cant try it(not that I would do it that way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Normal module reflashing and parameter setting is MUCH easier and does not involve all of these complicated steps. This As Built forcing procedure is only used on rare occasions like when a vehicle is misbuilt, or there are complications when doing the standard module replacement procedure, or in situations like this if we are trying to re-engineer something that is not meant to be changed. I do module replacements of all sorts frequently, but I doubt that I have to go through all of that more than 3 or 4 times in a year. Unfortunately there is no map to tell us what the data means. That is TOP SECRET Ford proprietary information that they will never share it with dealerships. Otherwise they would have a bunch of cocky smartass techs (like me) messing with stuff that ought not be messed with, and they cant have that now can they? All we see is the addresses for the modules, and the characters to type into it. Prior to IDS software version 51, the secret code of the day was always (CENSORED), but now they change the code every day and you have to go through hotline to get it on a case by case basis. Unless you do a workaround which is a REAL pain in the ass and involves looking at wiring diagrams and disconnecting module power inputs before selecting module programming on IDS, then when it can not recognize that module it might prompt you to enter as built data, then you reconnect the module wiring and let her rip, and even that does not always work. They do not make it easy to modify some things. That is why I am leaning more toward building custom pressure chambers in which to install TPMS sensors. (Never for a customer vehicle though - only my own). It is easier to fool a computer in to thinking all is right in the world, than it is to give it a lobotomy. When it comes to humans however, now that is another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Evil censors! I think that code is still there just the number has changed. I will have to take a look through the code and see if they really eliminated it. Anyway for the original poster there are some good ideas to try if you are really motivated. As Jim said in the other thread there are legal implications to defeating or turning it off so I wont give out directions on how to do it but I am sure there is a way /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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