Jim Warman Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Didn't know where to put this.... so it's going here. I've been busier than a cat trying to cover crap on a marble floor.... and I'm trying to shepherd this job, too.... I'll try to keep it short and sweet.... 06 F350... 5.4 came in on the hook. Customer had called me previously (just before the tow truck made an obscene amount of money)... "the truck is 'bouncy' and it wont go forward or backward". SHIT happened before I got called in. Our initial diag stinks to high heaven. Coast clutch codes - pull pan - see some crap (I have no idea how much or what) and call a trans.... Once the truck is safely outside in two feet of snow, I get the RO and the request to cost cap it.... OK... I mention that I didn't like cost capping something without an idea of the failure but it's a good fleet customer and the truck is an oilpatch "bandaid" unit (on site "medical" centre) so it hasn't seen any abuse other than too much idling. The FQR is installed and the "bouncy" makes itself evident.... can't remember the code, but the PPT has you change the VCT actuator early in the process. Truck has a Motorcraft filter and the VCT screen is clean. This was for bank two, BTW. Tech changed out the actuator and all seemed well.... except on the road test the truck wont go forward or backward... comes back on the hook.... but the tow truck driver drove the unit up on to the roll-off... and there are coast clutch codes in memory.... So... I'm trying to do all my other stuff (all the while Larry and the snow shovel are bothering me /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif ) while I'm trying to guide a 2nd year apprentice through a maze he hasn't been introduced to..... (the force IS strong in this one, ObiWan). Line pressure goes to zero when it pleases.... and damned if bank two isn't still having contribution problems. I have the apprentice call Lukewarm Line and, in spite of something I can't describe nagging at me, Lukewarm Line and I agree that we can't see any electrical failure that will deliver zero PSI line pressure. Last I saw was - in Park, PCA is at 800ish mA and line is 70 PSI. Put it in drive and raise rpm....mA drops and line pressure rises... looks good to me. Remove solenoid body and disassemble... nothing.... no slag, nothing to indicate any "gotchas". Lukewarm Line tells us to get another trans.... HEY... I'm happy to have one less thing to think about.... until tonight... when I have other things to think about... but I'm thinking about this instead. Bottom line.... I have "something" that is bothering bank two. It gave a VCT code that I am unsure if it came back. An actuator didn't fix it from my point of view. I keep seeing coast clutch codes (from memory a P0751 and a P27??). Sometimes I have no line pressure (he didn't save the movies) but when I do have line pressure, it looks great. I had the tech look for any "commonality" between the bank two phaser and the trans.... nothing circuitwise but I'm going to have a hard time showing any of these guys how to use "harness overview".... So.... here I am - hat in hand.... insufficient information... wierd problem... no personal time to spend on it..... WTF am I missing? Somebody kick me in the dupa.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I would check the pid status with IDS P0730_00 thru P0730_15. This will tell you if a clutch system failed on or off. Then if the battery was not disconnected during first trans swap, I would do so to clear the memory. The negative cable must be removed to do this, no other way. Then I would start from scratch and see what happens. Sounds hoaky but I have seen simpler things fix electrical problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 18, 2007 Author Share Posted December 18, 2007 Had the apprentice put everything back together and drive around the back lot until the truck wouldn't move... After about 10 minutes, he calls me on his cell.... He's sitting in reverse and the truck wont move..... until I unplug the trans harness.... Laying in a foot of snow, I can hear the trans pressure rise and the truck lurch into gear.... reverse and high pressure are transmission defaults... Anyway... now we know the concern isn't in the trans so we can concentrate on the (easier to reproduce) VCT trouble.... Long story short.... all that work and all the truck needed was an alternator (excessive ripple). I had mentioned that our initial diag stank to high heaven but the "popular vote" in the shop was that I was crazy and it needed a trans. Did I mention that I'm not above saying "I told you so...."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Long story short.... all that work and all the truck needed was an alternator (excessive ripple). Oooooohhhhh, that hurts. Did you ever notice the more we get hurt, the longer we remember it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Kaylor Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 damn. it has become standard practice in my shop to do a charging system test on ANYTHING coming through the door for more than a LOF. even then, we usually do it. with a microvat, it takes minutes, and has sold untold numbers of batteries and borderline alternators. it will make you taste bile in your throat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 The thing that sucks even more is when you have a shop do a diag. and replace one of the two alt's on a ambulance and they replaced the wrong one in the wrong spot. Lots of fun trying to figure out what they did!!!( I think we did not to long ago ) The best thing is when you figure it out and show the cust. that somebody didn't know what they were talking about, and fix the problem. You just got a cust. back. But alas comes the repair bill for having to figure out the correct repair and they get sticker shock. The cust. has there vehicle back up and doing what is supposed to do but have taken it in the old pooper to get it right. Shame on them for trying to go the "CHEAP" route. I guess that's why they call us "professionals,factory trained" because we have a clue as to what to look for to begin with. Even if we don't we have our little world here to get some better ideas as to where to go next. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif That's what this Forum is for guys /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Ohh by the way...Hey Jim I bet you will remember this one and probably feel it longer... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/poke.gif Just kidding I'm glad you figured it out. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 So.... I get the feeling I jinxed this one.... Apprentice disconnected the alternator and the truck ran great.... in retrospect, I didn't ask for how long or how many key cycles (did I mention that it sucks to be me?). A new alternator went on this AM and..... yep.... remember, at this time we are concentrating on the VCT problem. And we are still unsure if this is one concern or two. Hotline says "try" a phaser on bank two.... I feel good now.... Ford is telling us to throw parts at the problem. We don't use our VMM to it's fullest capabilities... and it's been several years since I actually used a lab scope for anything. So... I stayed late and played with my toys some more... Indications are a concern with CMP pattern on bank 2 - possibly a bent or misaligned phaser.... More testing in the AM and I'll have the chance to jinx myself even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 We don't use our VMM to it's fullest capabilities and it's been several years since I actually used a lab scope for anything. Indications are a concern with CMP pattern on bank 2 - possibly a bent or misaligned phaser.... More testing in the AM and I'll have the chance to jinx myself even worse. Jim: A friendly warning: To be confident with scope diagnosis you have to be comfortable with the scope. This means using it on a regular basis to be familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the particular scope. Most scopes have an "Achilles Tendon", or something that will cause the waveform to deform. These things might be fluorescent lights, unshielded leads, bad leads, an extension cord nearby, or even the AC charger on the laptop. I have several sets of leads and can get different patterns depending on which set I use. Having a "sixth sense" about why the pattern is not what you'd expect is very important, and what to "try" in an attempt to get the pattern to straighten out. This is developed over time and experience using the scope. I've taken more scope classes than I've taught, and my instructors have been national level trainers and the best scope guys in the country. Several of these classes have been a full week in length, nearly all hands-on. What I've learned from these guys is beyond explanation. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 I know all too well what you're talking, Bruce... Years ago, I had my own machine... an old Sun and I could ALMOST use it blindfolded. When I started at my present store, I tried the WDS and got a few giggles out of the cartoon that it showed me... especially the little green guy running his ass off (Run, Gumby..... run!!). The IDS/VMM looks like quite an improvement but I was smart enough to try different arrangements on the test leads... One of my patch cords reduced the amplitude of one trace by almost half... A little juggling and I sorted that one out What I wound up with (sorry, no captures.... I've been to damned busy) was one very good trace for bank one and a trace with one slightly low and one very low sine.... Looking through the CMP hole showed me one tang with what appeared to be "curvature of the spine". I went in with an old GM headlight spring tool and pulled the tang a bit more in to alignment - very slight gain on the very low peak but an improvement in the VCT concern. I "assume" (gotta love that word) that we are closer to some threshold meant to filter out transients. In the "what does it mean" department.... it is enough info to make me want the valve cover to come off so we can measure the clearance between the CMP and the phaser tangs... What it may have to do with the transmission concern is yet to be seen... Thanks for the heads up, though... it's good info for any guys that are considering giving the lab scope an honest try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Good job Jim, I would like to see some of the captures and try to figure it out, I'm getting closer as to figuring out what you guy's are talking about. Oh by the way hows the shovel doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 I gave up on the shovel.... blowing snow today.... Crustier than crap... It's hitting the ground almost as fast as I can get rid of it. I think it's time to beg the boss for the keys to the company bobcat. I'm told I have an extra guy coming after the first of the year.... might give me a little more time for actually saving and posting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Well I'm in for the lesson whenever your ready /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif As for the blower you need it up there in the great north, doing any sledding? Jim just a thought...I know it hurts me too...I think it was you that posted the little buzz through town with the camera inside the little car do you still have it and can you put it back up for us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 21, 2007 Author Share Posted December 21, 2007 Sledding? SLEDDING???? There's a Harley in my buddies garage that hasn't been ridden for far too long..... We've got a few ski-doo guys at work and I can't understand them.... "Hey... it's cold out - let's go 80 miles an hour until we freeze".... The "around town" film clip will probably take some searching... I'll see what I can come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 22, 2007 Author Share Posted December 22, 2007 You are going to love this one, Bruce.... remember I'd said when bent one tang on the phaser? We were about to pull the valve cover to check phaser to sensor clearance.... Our shop is piled up and it would take a long time for us to make a definitive judgement on our results. This customer is a "keeper" so we released the truck for him to assess... But the apprentice did take it for a lengthy road test.... none of the symptoms re-appeared... not even the trans concerns. In a failure.. the torqueshift should give reverse and second gear.... there is one clutch that is common to both positions and, without my chart, I am lost.... but unplugging the trans connector proves that the concern isn't in the trans. And I'm left scratching my head.... how could a bent phaser affect transmission engagement.... Stay tuned...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.