Tony302600 Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I got a ticket that stated "customer bought IDM, please install" i asked for what.. they said no-start. I replaced the IDM like he wanted and what do u know it didnt start. Fuel pressure is at 45, no codes, no nothing. checked oil pressure resevoir is empty...no oil coming out of the spill spouts. I filled the HPOP resevoir and tried cranking, nothing, just goes down. Any known concerns on the 95 for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I got a ticket that stated "customer bought IDM, please install" i asked for what.. they said no-start. I replaced the IDM like he wanted and what do u know it didn't start. Fuel pressure is at 45, no codes, no nothing. checked oil pressure reservoir is empty...no oil coming out of the spill spouts. I filled the HPOP reservoir and tried cranking, nothing, just goes down. Any known concerns on the 95 for this? Lots. If you fill the reservoir and it does not start, do basics like checking for leaks at the head with an air gun and replacing the IPR with a known good one. You may have two problems, because if the reservoir is empty, you fill it, and it won't start, it's hard for one problem to cause that. LP system: Start with making sure you have low pressure oil. If you don't, check the oil (duh!), and pull the oil filter and see if there is pressure or volume cranking. Early 7.3's are known for several LP problems: Make sure the bypass check valve is present visually above the filter, as the early ones are staked in instead of a snap ring and they tend to fall out, leaving the engine to run for years with no filtration. If the check valve is missing, stop there and tell him he needs an engine. The HP reservoir can leak down because of a design flaw, and a standpipe was added in '96. There is a deaeration valve in the rear of the timing cover that falls out, causing no LP oil at all. The pickup tube has a tendency to crack, causing a suction leak. And, the oil pumps wear out. Need more? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I recall the drainback valve in the rear oil cooler header tends to fall out on that year, and drains the hp reservoir -since the early ones didn't have a standpipe in it. If you remove the oil filter, it will fall out with the filter. If you're able to collect the 2 washers and the spring, it can be reused by staking it back into place. Otherwise, the oil cooler header needs to be replaced. Ford updated it by installing a snap ring to retain the valve assembly. Otherwise check for a badly worn low pressure oil pump. They don't usually look bad, but if checked with a feeler gauge sometimes you'll find it. There may also be a check valve in the hp pump itslef, or the front cover depending on the year, so that's something to keep in mind too. Check tsb 96-11-13 for more on that. I tried reading it but found it very confusing. Another thought...If the low pressure pump is coming apart, there may be pieces of it sticking the IPR open too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Well Geez. Here I am typing away, and Bruce beats me to it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boxing.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 Bruce, checked the oil, its full, IPR was done a while ago, the guy is a big rig mechanic and this is his work truck....he always tells us to put the parts on after he diags them because he gets a 12/12,000 if we install the part. we'll c bruce......thanks again for all the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 He did a IPR, could he have also tried to reseal the HPOP and posibbly pull the plug for the check valve and dropped the ball inside? That's almost what this smells like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 I took the high pressure oil resevoir out and cranked it....no low oil supply....taking off oil pump tomorrow, will let u know what i find.. tried adding 5 extra quarts and jackin up rear to see if pickup was cracked....no dice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 19, 2007 Author Share Posted December 19, 2007 Just got the low pressure oil pump out....looks fine.....next is to check the regulator, then take the engine out and check the pickup tube /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif im really concerned that the truck didnt start after putting 1 qt of oil in the hp resevoir....should have started...im not liking this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I wouldn't pull the motor unless you have good reason. Check the pump like this, it should be .003-.004", but it will be .010-.015", so you can justify a pump. Put the new pump on and remove the oil cooler. Crank the engine and see if oil comes out from the port on the left side of the timing cover. If it does, hold your hand over it and have an assistant crank the engine to see if it will build some kind of pressure. If it won't build pressure, the deaeration valve might have fallen out of the backside of the timing cover. Find a definite direction before you take stuff apart. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Keith,Jim and Bruce, and everyone here, it seems to me we have seen this before, can anybody remember when? This is to reminiscient I/we have had this on the forum before...I just can't place it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Tony something just stinks about this whole situation... There is something the cust. is not telling you. My suggestion is to talk to him and get him to tell you what he has had done to this truck before it got there. Oil, fuel something he figured he didn't need us for and did to the truck. When it happened, what happened??? It could help in fixing this without having to pull the engine hopefully... Especially after you had told us he diag's his own truck and has you replace the parts for warranty of 12/12. He's done something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Keith,Jim and Bruce, and everyone here, it seems to me we have seen this before, can anybody remember when? This is to reminiscient I/we have had this on the forum before...I just can't place it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Here? http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9127&page=1#Post9127 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 YOU ARE THE MAN... I may not have what you guy's do wrenching on them all day but I do pay attention... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif Thanks this may help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 just to ask, any codes, rpm, voltage, mass fuel desired ok, buzz test pass? what does icp do when you fill it with oil? is the check valve there on the oil cooler header where the filter screws on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 He's done something... Like mis-diagnose this from the get-go. I see this from time to time. A truck gets towed in, new filters, all kinds of shiny new parts here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Luckily the IDS wont let me access the ICPa pid. Hotline said its because it doesnt clash with the older ones. with no NGS in sight i waas winging it. IPR goes to 50% and stays there...RPM is at 140-150, no dtc's, buzz test awesome, just noticied had no base oil pressure when i cranked and cranked adn cranked. Bruce the pump is .004'' clearance. doesnt look like it has much wear on it. Very minimal scoring when i pulled the cover off....there was no oil whatsoever inside. I looked in the bottom port of the front cover, dry as day (im assuming that where oil comes in) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Ok took the oil filter off and found that the "spring and ball" or whatever is suppost to be in a cylindrical cavity is missing and after taking another 7.3L oil filter off finding it being present. Bruce is that what u were talking bout him needing a motor. The oil filter was full by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 That would be the one, I have found a few over the years, some with the parts and some without. There ia a SSM stating that is the parts were recovered they sould be reinstalled and to stake the valve seat into the adapter. Quote: SSM NUMBER: 4808 Check for missing oil filter relief valve A missing oil filter relief valve in the rear oil cooler header is a possible cause of a start/stall with no oil noted in the reservoir, rough idle, or irregular oil pressure gauge readings. The three pieces of of the valve (spring, fiber washer, and steel washer) can fall out of the rear oil cooler header while removing the oil filter due to the lack of enough retaining stake. If all pieces fall out and are recovered, the proper order to reinstall these pieces is: spring, fiber washer, and steel washer. Stake them back in place. The valve is not serviced separately. If any one piece is missing, the rear oil cooler header must be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Ok took the oil filter off and found that the "spring and ball" or whatever is supposed to be in a cylindrical cavity is missing and after taking another 7.3L oil filter off finding it being present. Bruce is that what u were talking bout him needing a motor. The oil filter was full by the way. I can tell you a really long horror story about a missing filter check valve. Remember that this valve probably fell out years ago, and the engine has run without an oil filter since then. If the oil has a choice of either going through the filter, or going around it, it will choose to go around it. Oil, and electricity, are lazy, kinda like a flat rate tech. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/poke.gif They will choose the path of least resistance. Running without a filter causes the oil cooler to become the filter. This was a really difficult pic to shoot, and this is the best I got: I was called in to diag an early 7.3 ICP problem after it had received a LP pump, new timing cover, one piston, oil pan, many other parts, and every HP oil component multiple times. I had the guy do pretty much what I'm telling you, had him remove the oil cooler and check flow from the LPOP, etc. He calls me and says, "Shouldn't I be able to run solvent through the oil cooler?" I said yes, of course, and he replies that when he puts the oil cooler in the solvent tank, no solvent can flow through it. It was plugged with metal shavings! This was at a local shop and I was able to take the pics, and inform the shop owner that the $7500 worth of work he did on this engine was going into a core motor. Not a good day. Suggest to your customer that this engine should be scrapped, because it is a time bomb, ready to bite the big one at any minute. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cover.gif Good Luck, you're gonna need it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 PS If you want hard evidence to show him, get an oil analysis (assuming it still has oil in it). Napa/Wix PN 4077, $12, you mail it off and they send the results in a week or so. You get a computerized level of about 40 things in the oil. It's well worth it, and a very commonly overlooked diag method. FWIW, FMC does not identify oil analysis as a valid test. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 20, 2007 Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Bruce, this thing was taken care of beautifully. I took the valve cover off and it looks beautiful underneath it. I ordered a new rear header, oil pump and cover ( slight scoring ) i will put the rear header on, the low pressureoil pump on...then crank it over to see if oil goes to the oil filter adapater...if so, then throw a oil filter in it, and see if oil comes up to the stand pipe...if not....out comes the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 Bruce, this thing was taken care of beautifully. I took the valve cover off and it looks beautiful underneath it. OK, I understand your position, but if there is oil contamination it's not going to show up as sludge under the valve covers. It will more likely show up as worn/scored bearings and crank, along with accelerated piston wear, etc. The only positive thing I can say is the LPOP looked good. How many miles on this truck? I ordered a new rear header, oil pump and cover ( slight scoring ) i will put the rear header on, the low pressure oil pump on...then crank it over to see if oil goes to the oil filter adapter...if so, then throw a oil filter in it, and see if oil comes up to the stand pipe...if not....out comes the motor. For the customer's sake I hope it all goes well and out the door. Sometimes I'm an optimist, and sometimes I'm not. Something smells bad with this one..... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I don't fully understand this and hope somebody can help clear this up in my head. The valve that is missing in the rear header of the oil cooler is this the oil filter bypass valve or the oil pressure regulator? If having this valve fall out causes no low oil pressure and a no start then how can you damage the engine if it won't start? I'm not saying that anybody is wrong but it doesn't make sense to me and I can't seem to find any good information about the early 7.3L lube oil system. One diagram shows a oil pressure regulator and a filter bypass but it's not clear enough for me to pinpoint the location. Thanks for any info. BTW-Where is the oil pressure regulator on a 7.3? I've never had to find it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Slim, this is the bypass valve, it is a valve the has been incorporated into the engine should the filter become plugged for some reason this will bypass the filter as to not lose oil pressure. If for some reason this valve comes free and falls out usually it happens when changing oil and is not noticed in the drain pan, then the engine will bypass the filter totally and just recirculate the dirty oil and as Keith, I think posted the pictures, has shown the oil cooler will act as the filter and eventually become plugged and in the end have no pressure and have premature wear in vital components of the engine. Which is why we have said get a price on a new engine. I'm just a parts guy but I hope I have helped you to understand what has and will happen if the bypass valve comes free and lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 I can't seem to find any good information about the early 7.3L lube oil system. One diagram shows a oil pressure regulator and a filter bypass but it's not clear enough for me to pinpoint the location. Thanks for any info. BTW-Where is the oil pressure regulator on a 7.3? I've never had to find it before. Slim, I have posted most of the Coffee Table Books in the Articles section. See this booklet: 94 98 7.3 DIT Direct Injection Turbocharged Diesel.pdf Start with page 39 and read the entire booklet when you get a chance. They are informative and clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 26, 2007 Author Share Posted December 26, 2007 Ok, to give you guys an update... put a new oil pump and cover on it, had the big rig shop put a new rear header on the oil cooler ( with revised parts ) put the oil cooler in without a oil filter....cranked, have oil to filter, put oil filter on...cranked....have oil to HP oil resevoir...cranked, cranked, cranked....fugger started up.....#1 and #5 have no oil coming out the spill spouts after 30min of idling. Passes injector self test..(#5 is questionable ) customer said to drive it and wants it back. With a new IDM will it take time to compensate for the injectors? Thats what i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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