LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Okay guys update.... Diamond Eye exhaust, we have a DPF back kit avail. in Aluminized and Stainless. Also Superchip has a kit out too. Had a engineer from Ford call today inquiring about a DPF delete exhaust kit /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif It pisses me off that I see this from somebody from Ford, let alone a engineer. My shop sells this crap but If I get the call I have to take it, what do I do to keep my sanity with this even though I don't believe in deleting emissions equip.???? As well as the legal aspect of it??? We sell this stuff and I understand it's for off road vehicles only...But I know that it's going to be put on a daily driver...???? Any suggestions???? Hate to see somebody mis-informed of the outcome from these companies that sell it, and don't sell it as a OFF-ROAD option only. In other words no WARRANTY!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Perhaps this engineer was testing aftermarket devices to measure their affects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Perhaps this engineer was testing aftermarket devices to measure their affects? I dont think so, we already have a DPF delete kit in production along with the cal so this guy probably isnt in diesel engineering. I guess he could be testing different manufacturers stuff but a straight pipe is a straight pipe. More than likely he's a guy with more money than brains, there seem to be a lot of those lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted March 29, 2008 Author Share Posted March 29, 2008 Yep, his own truck, and I'm sure he has more goodies on it than a normal man can afford. Haven't seen it yet but wants the whole hook up of A/M parts. He just scheduled it to have the install with our repair side. I'll be watching for it and have a camera ready just in case, be kind of cool to watch the upfit done on it, see what has to be done to make it work. If and when he does show up I have the approval of my shop manager to take pics of the upfit. Still it bothers me, This is stuff that shouldn't be done unless he understands that there will be no factory warranty on the truck. Hmmmm....Should I get the vin and post it here for one of you. Maybe give mother a heads up for the claims to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Hmmmm....Should I get the vin and post it here for one of you. Maybe give mother a heads up for the claims to come. Ill-advised. We are not the Smog Police and that is not what this web site is to be used for. Respect his privacy as we would yours and besides, he is "one of us." With that said, unless this guy rolls into your dealer and expects you to warranty a failure caused by his modifications it is really none of our business what he, or anyone else does to their truck. Sure, we can observe and comment and mock... but let's put away the pitchforks and torches okay? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Perhaps this engineer was testing aftermarket devices to measure their affects?I don't think so, we already have a DPF delete kit in production along with the cal so this guy probably isn't in diesel engineering. I guess he could be testing different manufacturers stuff but a straight pipe is a straight pipe. More than likely he's a guy with more money than brains, there seem to be a lot of those lately. Well if it's his personal truck then that explains it. I doubt any "test vehicles" would be pulling up to an outside store or shop. This does raise a question though; These aftermarket guys take stock processors and other engine items and modify them or design replacement parts and I would assume some reverse engineering takes place. Do you think there are people at Ford that do the same with aftermarket stuff? I can see a team of engineers plugging in a tuner and testing it, pulling the calibration and deciphering it and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 Do you think there are people at Ford that do the same with aftermarket stuff? I can see a team of engineers plugging in a tuner and testing it, pulling the calibration and deciphering it and so on. Could be, being that Dearborn is only miles away from me....Don't know for sure but would be interesting to have some info on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 When i was at Ford school in Dearborn (8 kids a year)they showed us a SuperDuty with a Ford GT motor in it (before they came out). Cetane would be on to ask, he's a calibration engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I havent heard of anyone doing this. Maybe FCSD or warranty personnel would benefit from taking a look just to determine possible failure modes but other than that I dont know what there would be to get out of it. We are actually pretty careful not to get caught up with the aftermarket or do anything with their hardware just to be sure no one gets the impression we are "working" with them. For what its worth, it would take less than ten minutes to flash the aftermarket cal onto the ECU and determine the all differences between it and a production hex file. And most of that would just be the time it takes to flash. I would be more interested in how they break down the stock code to determine the correct location for changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 It would be nice to know who you are other than "A Tech" as in your profile. But thats up to you, ( You could send a pm and intro yourself to a few ). As for Ford using the A/M and looking into the programming, I think they do, at least the Warr. Nazi's that kill claims all the time. Lets face it Ford wants info from the other side also. As some will call it the "DARK SIDE". Info is power to some.... Who knows maybe I talked to you Cetane about the upgrade parts???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I was checking out one of the public forums and it sounds like there are a couple of "tuners" who will modify aftermarket programmers to shut off the regeneration process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Anyway, back to the TOPIC, I also swear that we were told in the 6.4L training that there were measures taken to make detectable tampering evident. I never got a straight explanation about it nor have I heard anything more about it. Perhaps not at the dealer level as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Keith, I actually have been told time and time again that Ford doesn't have the ability to do that. Instructor told me, and hotline also told me. They usually say "that would be awesome if we were able to do that." I may be wrong, and I still tell customer's that we can. On Topic, I am not at all against tuner's helping increase gas mileage. As long as the factory catalytic system stays on the truck. Do you think that deleting the DPF, keeping the DOC and making 20-30mpg would be as harmful on the environment as the truck only getting 7MPG entirely stock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 That really depends on the emission you are trying to control. Yes better fuel economy will reduce CO2 but the lack of dpf and doc will VASTLY increase the NOx, HC and most importantly PM emissions. All of these have far greater health effects than CO2. The effects of PM emissions from diesels have been well documented. If you want to scare yourself just look them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I'm siding with Jay on this one... Yes... fuel prices are a killer.... but we have technologies in development that will reduce our dependancy on petroleum products. At the same time, the non-renewable resources we need to protect is the very air we breathe and the water we consume. Two of the basics for human survival. Should we squander our air quality to save a few bucks at the pump island? I'm pretty sure that, in the very near future, I am going to have grandchildren to spoil. I'd like to hand them the keys to a planet that isn't going to kill them. Clean tailpipe emissions do NOT go hand in hand with good fuel economy... we proved that in the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 K, im convinced. When will Ford introduce the Urea on diesels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 2010 I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 I believe that in the universal language that this would be going 10-100 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Keith, I really think the urea thing depends on the success of Honda's new converters. They say they have produced a convertor that will reduce Nox to 2010 levels without urea injection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Where can we find information on that on the web? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 keith, I have been hearing about this for months. I first heard it on NPR I think. Motor trend did an article about it in January. Here is a link to Green Car Congress that talks about their 4 cyl diesel and the aftertreatment system http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/09/honda-displays-.html http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/08/hondas_approach.html Amazing isn't it that the jap car company that does not currently produce any diesels of it's own out engineered us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Geez, I dont log in for a couple days and this gets right into my area. First off the DOC/DPF combo doesnt have any direct effect on NOx. Actually if you didnt care about smoke the NOx would be lower because you could run more EGR and retarded timing. The success of the SCR doesnt have anything to do with the Honda system. Honda is running an LNT(the other NOx reducing technology) because its cheaper than urea/SCR on the smaller engines(amongst some other reasons). The problem with LNT is that it hasnt been proven to be effective over the long term and it has a more limited temperature range. Maybe Honda has solved the problem but I havent seen any evidence of it. Urea/SCR is used on larger engines because it is more robust, cheaper and more effective in the ranges that the typical truck owner will operate in. It isnt that we were out-engineered, both systems were tested, one works and the other doesnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 5, 2008 Author Share Posted April 5, 2008 The new catalytic converter utilizes a two-layer structure: one layer adsorbs NOx from the exhaust gas and converts a portion of it into ammonia, while the other layer adsorbs the resulting ammonia, and uses it later in a reaction that converts the remaining NOx in the exhaust into nitrogen (N2).Ammonia is a highly effective reagent for reducing NOx into N2 in an oxygen-rich, lean-burn atmosphere. The system also features enhanced NOx reduction performance at 200–300ºC, the main temperature range of diesel engines. So, If I'm reading this right this is a 2 step catalyst system, and will regen later when it gets loaded up and regen when needed, and not computer ordered when the sensors say to, and not have to inject raw fuel into the catalyst??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 These are a couple decent explanations.... http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0705_technologue/ http://www.meca.org/galleries/default-file/MECA%20Diesel%20White%20Paper%2012-07-07%20final.pdf One big thing that Motor Trend conveniently skips over is the DeSOx mode which is described in the MECA paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted April 12, 2008 Author Share Posted April 12, 2008 Cetane, very cool articles As a matter of fact I have even had a few CVCC Civics over the years, best damn cars I ever owned. 1982 Civic wagon sold to my brother with 245,000 miles on it still running he drove it for a year and wrecked it with 273,000 miles. The other 2 were 1983 Civic hatchbacks owned at the same time all 5 speeds, talk about the ultimate go-karts. A lot of fun. Sold them when I got married and had kids, to small for a family. Bummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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