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6.0 Heads and Head Gaskets

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I have 2 6.0 engines apart right now, 1 is to repair blown head gaskets (customers concern was that coolant is blowing out of the resovoir). Head gaskets blown between #3#5 and #4#6. Inspected heads for warpage had .004" in the same areas of where the gaskets had blown. The second engine has external oil leaks from the right side headgasket. Removed the head and again checked for cylinder head flatness, same clearance issue, same area. Ordered 4 heads, 2 heads came in on Fri. I checked them for flatness and had .004" clearance in the same area on both new heads. Went to a machine shop thinking my bar was off but their bar showed the same measurements. Hotline instructed me to wait for the other set of heads to come in and check them, they came in today with the same clearance issues!! Hotline is stumped, later in the afternoon International phoned and asked that when the heads are sent back, to address them to certain people for inspection. Has anyone had any similar problems. I hope they don't have a bad batch of heads (there are sure a great deal of blowing coolant out of the resovoir concerns). These customers have been both truckless for about a month.

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Just finished a '03 Excursion yesterday that was blowing coolant out the reservoir. We had a Super -Duty earlier that had .004" on the heads and the replacement was just as bad out of the box. We did use it. I don't know if it's worth waiting for a perfectly flat head. After doing the Excursion I have come to the feeling the problem is poor initial assembly or the original headgaskets(since I was sent the up-dated kit). We have been putting in both headgaskets and the EGR cooler and having no returns with the original complaint.

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I have an '05 Econoline waiting that has some serious problems with coolant geysering out the de-gas bottle and blowing what looks like oil and coolant out the exhaust. The van has also hydro-locked. I verified the presence of Co2 in the cooling system though it was obvious I have a major combustion leak. I have not seen any head gasket problems as of now but who knows? Maybe this is the first!

 

Thanks for the "heads up" on the heads.

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I had one with blown head gaskets in the same spot everyone is talking about ....also had the same measurments in the same spots on the old and new heads ...did use the heads, also crossed my fingers.. how about torquing those bolts ..i am not a big guy and i thought i was going to have a heart attack when i was done with them ...

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A question for those of you who have done head gaskets on the 6.0L - Did anyone do it in chassis or did we pull the engine as the service manual says? I was just curious as to whether it was really necessary to remove the engine. It sure would be a lot easier on an engine stand I would imagine.

 

And another question - Has anyone used a Co2 tester to diagnose a bad head gasket that was not necessarily spewing coolant but maybe using coolant? I had a leaking EGR cooler on one and I wonder if either concern would show up the same.

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I do them on the engine stand ..it is what works for me .... i fine it easier in front of me than leaning over the cab ....also trying to twist those bolts would be murder in chasis ..

and never used or heard of a co2 tester for headgaskets ...is that the same as sniffing the coolant with the 5 gas sniffer?? oh and i have another 6.0 450 in my bay that needs headgaskets

the truck originaly had compression leaking in to the fuel system wich i took care of then 3000 miles later over heating and spewing coolant..

yaaaaaaaaa for me /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

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Quote:
and never used or heard of a Co2 tester for head gaskets ...is that the same as sniffing the coolant with the 5 gas sniffer??
A Co2 sniffer is a two chamber tube with cups that hold a reactive solution that is blue in color which turns yellow with the presence of Co2. The tool has a squeeze ball and draws air from the bottom which aerates the solution chambers.

I am working on several articles to be posted on our front page for March and April, one of which is on "tech tools" and I am actually thinking of making a series out of the topic. Tell ya what, I'll highlight the tool for next month on the main page... photos (which I already have taken) and a write up with tool number and availability.

How's that sound? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif
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This tool is also available as a single chamber tool and sold under the name "Block Tester".

 

Luke-warmline may have you install a clear plastic hose into the system to check for bubbles. Every 6.0 I have checked this way produces bubbles in the clear plastic hose... it will send you on a wild goose chase and there will be a chargeback.

 

There are a couple of drawbacks... I've had the block tester fluid drawn back into the cooling system (i'm told the fluid is benign) and I've had the chanber fill with coolant.... in both cases, you may have to start over.

 

If your shop has a gas bench (analyzer) this can be used to find combustion byproducts in the cooling system.... Sucking coolant through the gas bench probe makes for a very expensive day.

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I have always raised the cab/body to do head gaskets or engine swaps on most pick-ups and Expedition/Navigators. When you remove the cab/body the engine is basically on a stand at the correct height for me. I use a 3/4" Snap-On breaker bar for the torque to yield sequences of the head bolts on the sick-o. The cab/body off method allows pretty much all the engine components to be assembled. You do not have to snake exhaust, turbos,wire harnesses or intakes under the cab lip since its already on and was properly aligned because you have ample room. All those clamps that seem to be pointed wrong when pulling the engine by the book are easily accessed with the cab/body off, cause that is the way it was done on the line during assembly. The turbo bolts on the sick-o are right out in the open with the cab/body off. I don't know for sure whether the cab /body off is faster, but my back sure is pleased with the method.

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I don't know for sure whether the cab /body off is faster, but my back sure is pleased with the method.
Two questions: How long does it take to lift the cab from the frame - and - how do you actually lift the cab? I am thinking you use an above ground lift and raise it straight up out of the way leaving it in position for reassembly?

That's pretty interesting and I have heard of guys doing that but have never actually run into someone who has done it. I would love to see a picture of that. I remember somebody has written the procedure and posted it somewhere but I can't remember where. Amen on saving the ol' back!
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You can raise the cab/body with either an above or below ground hoist as long as the arms swing in from the outside leaving the underbody open. I prefer my above ground Rotary since the arms lock in place when lifted. On vehicles without running boards you simply lift on the pinch welds with the hoist pads flat. On vehicles with boards/nerf bars you can remove them or take a 4X4 (5 to 7 feet long) piece of wood and lay it on the spread of your hoist arms and lift using the wood like the skids of a helicopter against the board/nerf bar support brackets. There is little weight to the cab. The Excursion I mentioned in an earlier post, I did remove the factory boards since they are so easy to do and the full body with all the seats is heavier than just a truck cab.

 

You are not wasting time in raising/lowering the body, you are merely trading it for the engine removal/re-install and engine stand mounting time the book procedure follows.

 

You can find the body removal procedure on flatratetech. I have some pictures of my own, also.

 

The Excursion I just did I finished in about 15-16 hours. This included the entire head gasket repair kit components for both banks, new EGR cooler and Y-pipe, diagnosis, road tests and oil change.

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This months new article is about detecting combustion in the cooling system and using this tester.

 

Detecting Combustion

 

 

* Anyone who has additional information, ideas of facts that you think should be added to this or any article on our main page please feel free to send them in! Use e-mail or PM me. I wish to keep this site progressive and open to free thinking and sharing of ideas and information!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry I have not gotten back sooner, but here is the end results of this situation. After I had stock piled 7 new cylinder heads in our parts department with all the same clearance issues between #2,#4 or #3,#5 (.0035"-.004") An International/Navistar Engineer visited our dealership to verify the concern. We even went out and purchased a brand new 24" staright edge and a new set of feeler gauges from Snap-On so he would not have tool issues/concerns. He asked me for the latest Ford service manual specs off the computer. He said that the way the specs were written were misleading and need to be corrected. Even thou these heads were brand new .004" in total meant that if I could fit up to a .004" feeler gauge in any area using a straight edge that extended the length of the head (24"), it was in spec, anything more, then the head would be out of spec.

The other spec which states "no more then .002" in a 2 inch area" meant that I was to use a 2 inch straight edge and measure the head different areas. "This is the Navistar way" were his words. He also recommend that our dealership purchase International's VT365 service manual because it shows the proper steps. He inspected all 7 heads and said they passed. As soon as I was given the o.k. I reassembled the engine (tecanic1 your not kidding about torquing the headbolts, those puppies are tight). The motor ran great and the concern was fixed. 3 days later there is a nice blue International service manual sitting on top of my tool box. Would you believe that the specs from that book were the same as Fords!!! There are pictures not illustrations of how to inspect the head for flatness and the tech is using a 24" straight edge. There is no mention or pictures of this 2" straight edge. What is going on? This info has been related to Ford and they are going to be looking into this. So now I guess I will just check for knicks, cracks, and scratches to the surface and bolt them on. Unbelievable !!

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  • 1 month later...

Well I finally got one in today that seems to be expelling coolant more than what I have seen as typical. Knowing what I have been hearing and reading i decided to call the Tech Hot Line. They suggested that I first check the EGR cooler before directing my attention to the cylinder heads. Guess what I was told to look for? Aftermarket tuners like the "Edge Juice" I found in the customer's truck... all disconnected of course but still there. :rolleyes: So I topped it off and cleaned all of the staining from the de-gas bottle and took it for a ride with me right foot on the floor. It spits. We are waiting for the customer to return from vacation to open a new "dialog" with him about the issue.

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Even though the module probably aided in the destruction of the head gaskets, I am seeing a great deal of non-modified engines blowing head gaskets. I watched a 2 hr information update on the 6.0 today at work via satellite. There is going to be an updated head gasket available sometime in May. They are crediting the head gaskets blowing due to towing heavy loads!!! As an owner of one, that was one of the main reasons for buying a diesel!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif

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  • 3 weeks later...

Okay, it's crunch time and the owner has no problem paying for the repair. Aside from removing the cab has anybody done 6.0 head gaskets IN CHASSIS? I have seen pictures of it done but I can't decide if I want to try it or just pull another !?@#!? engine do it on a stand and get it over with. I'm in the middle of an Excursion engine replacement right now so I'm not in a great frame of mind. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, it's crunch time and the owner has no problem paying for the repair. Aside from removing the cab has anybody done 6.0 head gaskets IN CHASSIS? I have seen pictures of it done but I can't decide if I want to try it or just pull another !?@#!? engine do it on a stand and get it over with. I'm in the middle of an Excursion engine replacement right now so I'm not in a great frame of mind. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

I believe you can not r&r both heads in the truck,with the body on,Ford recommends removing the evaporator box for the right head,but there is no way you can torque the head bolts in the body. Remove the cab and you will not be sorry,if I am left alone and work steady,I can get a caB OFF IN AN HOUR AND A HALF(MOST OF THE TIME)as for excursions,you will have to pull the engine.
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Guys,

 

On the combustion/cooling system overpressure issue, I get a few ambulance conversions that sometimes are less than satisfactory in craftsmanship (not to mention a pain to service). One coach in particular had the requisite heater-hose splices done-up with 5/8" copper hosehold pipe. Guess where the weakest like was??!! It's in my bay now only after the engine heated so badly that the standpipe melted into a black blob! Anywho, lookout for sorry coach conversions and sloppy splices.

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Keith,

 

Almost forgot. I've done the heads in-body, but I removed the front sheetmetal (like you're gonna pull the engine. Left side is what you'd expect on a large engine, but the right side requires at least removing the evap case half. After breaking the bolts loose on the right side, I take a few wire-ties and cinch the bolts up at the rear. Then, other than the weight, it's easy to pull up, over then out.

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  • 2 months later...

i just diaged my first leaking egr cooler or i least hope its the cooler. i found moisture in the egr valve bore. also the hose running from the intake to the degas bottle was causing alot of bubbles in the degas bottle. i tried a block checker on it and after a while it turned clear. it seemed to take more time to get it to change than a 3.8l does...go figure! i also have some pics of a cab i took off and i must admit its easier on the back.

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  • 1 month later...

Okay, sorry to drag this topic from the technical to the political but I have recently seen a new resurgence of posts on the "other" web sites about warranty. Specifically, What's the difference between a stock truck that works really hard and pukes coolant and a modified truck that pukes coolant?

 

I think most of us are fairly well aligned with the fact that running mods on your truck basically places the liability on the owner but there is an argument going that in the same shop, non-modded trucks get a warranty repair where the mopdded trucks do not for the same failure. How do we justify that? Is it a valid argument? Is it really left to our judgment or are we simply to apply the policy as Ford has it written?

 

Grey area... maybe. Opinions?

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I get your point. I'll be lily-livered on this one and defer to Ford warrany policy. If the customer wants to argue the fact then on to the CRC. Allow me to take a trip back in time: in the mid 70's IH wanted to compete with Massey Ferguson's new V-8 diesel tractor with one of their own, thus was born the '88' series tractors with a 9.0 IDI adapted for agri use. Since the 9.0 produced actually less output than the 414 DI six, farmers began stacking AR and Garrett turbos on the 9's but the bottom and head/gaskets couldn't take the strain of even 4-6 psi of boost. Back at the dealerships, warranty admin had the same quandry we have today, but had to err on the side of IH and customer-pay the units that had been "juiced". Just my 2 cent.

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