LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Long story made short.... I am trying to help out a good customer. He has had this particular truck to the local IH dealer 4 times with bad head gaskets. 1. head gasket change 2. Head gasket + #6 liner 3. Head gasket + #3 and #4 liner 4. Head gasket And now for the 5th time blown head gasket. I had him send me the head so we could check it out. We got it up on the bench to clean it and the first thing I noticed was the surface of the head had been cleaned with surface prep discs on the previous repairs. Does IH have anything in print for cleaning and prep requirements for these heads? By looking at the head with no further inspection it appears to be wavy. We will be doing a really extensive check in the A.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'm assuming this is an EGR motor, '05 up. Do you have the VIN? Was any of this done under warranty? I'm not aware of anything in print from IH stating to avoid gasket whizzers. The service manual states the proper way to clean the head is: 1. Use a rotary wire brush or a sanding block with mineral spirits to remove any deposits and gasket material from the gasket surface of the cylinder head. 2. Use an appropriately sized brush to clean all mounting bolt holes in the cylinder head. IH has had some problems with liner protrusion not being set correctly from the factory on those engines causing problems. Commonly the base fault is the counterbores in the block are not machined to the proper standard, requiring the counterbore to be hand-cut in the chassis and shims added. Eat your Wheaties! Generally the techs "mix and match" the sleeves to see if they can get the protrusion within specs before attempting to cut the counterbores. Cylinder Sleeve Specifications Allowable variation of counterbore depth between four points (max.) 0.03 mm (0.001 in) Counterbore depth before adding shims (max.) 10.49 mm (0.413 in) Counterbore depth (including shims- if any) 8.84 - 8.89 mm (0.348 - 0.350 in) Cylinder sleeve protrusion 0.05 - 0.13 mm (0.002 - 0.005 in) Cylinder sleeve taper, at top of ring travel (max.) 0.10 mm (0.004 in) Flange thickness 8.94 - 8.96 mm (0.352 - 0.353 in) Inside diameter 114.50 - 116.60 mm (4.590 - 4.591 in) It's all in the WSM- clamp the liner in place, measure the protrusion with a "sled" gauge, and correct accordingly. From my class: Early EGR engines had problems at the factory with keeping the depth consistent on counterbores (in the block) .002-.005" is spec Liners must be clamped with bolts and washers Check protrusion at 4 points around liner Mix and match liners if slightly off (play musical liners) Smallest shim available: .002” Too much protrusion? Cut counterbores manually with a counterbore cutter. (Eat your Wheaties!) Good Luck! PS I have a core head and a core long block for this truck if you need them. Do you have ISIS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 PS I go to the west coast for a few days tomorrow AM and won't be sitting on my PC. Call if I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 The heads are always wavy from the factory. The local machine shop that does ours always jokes that it looks like they were cut with a chainsaw. The torque spec has been increased on the headbolts as of a few weeks ago. I have had a couple problem childs, repeat failures not by our shop. Liners were always pretty close, had the head cut, tap the head bolt holes and install new head bolts and have not had any repeats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Update, Head wavy as a Lays potato chip. Head thickness 5.061 New out of box spec 5.050-5.070 Minimum 5.040 Had to remove .006 now sits flat at 5.055 Cust ran liner protrusion and ordered shims but didn't say which were out of spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
International Tech Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Sorry to bring this back up but are the Maxxforce DT engines having this issue(counterbores) as well? We have a Maxxforce DT in our shop now that is losing coolant and we cannot find a culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 I have not heard of any counterbore issues with the maxxforce engines. Every engine that I have run across that had headgasket issues put a lot of pressure in the cooling system. I think there was an article somewhere that listed the serial number range of the affected blocks. I have seen lots of hotside egr cooler failures. Some with very small pinhole type leaks. Small enough where you don't see coolant in the crossover piping and or no smoking/steaming out the exhaust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
International Tech Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Both coolers have passed a hot and cold pressure tests. The system is not building any pressure. Its just losing/using coolant. Can that article be found on ISIS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 ISIS or Iknow. I'll do some looking tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 I'm also not aware of any counterbore issues in later engines. I'd suggest loading the coolant with UV dye and taking the truck for a drive, then removing the EGR or coolers and looking for evidence of dye with a UV light. If the truck is using coolant it almost certainly has been driven with the coolant low. EGR coolers will not tolerate operation with the low coolant, even for a short time. My money is on an EGR cooler leaking slowly. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
International Tech Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 check your pms Bruce. I appreciate the help guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
International Tech Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 He found the culprit today. The block is cracked between the number 1 and 2 cylinders where the oring for the liner seals against the block. The crack goes all the way to the next cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 That is a new one. So the coolant was going into the oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 He found the culprit today. The block is cracked between the number 1 and 2 cylinders where the oring for the liner seals against the block. The crack goes all the way to the next cylinder. Got a pic? I am putting together a lot of new photos for the site, this would be an interesting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
International Tech Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 It was mixing with oil but a very small amount. After thinking about it, if we had dropped the pan after running the engine to operating temp and pressurized the system, we probably would have seen the leak. The oil looked fine when draining it. Its a weird situation. Im gonna try to snap a few pics tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Here is the deal with the poorly machined blocks. There is not service letter yet. A few months ago there was a service manager meeting in Washington DC. This was a topic that came up there. Apparently they do not check the liner protrusion at the factory. They have a machine that installs 6 liners at once and sends it on its way. Headgasket issues have popped up on the later serial number I6 egr (I313) engines and maxxforce engines. They have found liner protrusion to be out of spec due to counterbores that are out of spec. Navistar has revised the head bolt torque (add another 1/4 turn to the head bolt) They also came out with an inexpensive manual counterbore cutting tool. The powered version was in the neighborhood of $3500 (if I remember correctly). ISIS has the info for the updated head bolt toque and flatness checks. I had 570 a couple month that would have coolant coming back in its oil sample (very small amount). Tech service wanted to hear nothing about it. I dropped the pan, pressure test, could find nothing. Passed the pressure test hot and cold. Took a gamble and pulled the egr cooler, all black fluff. Decided to pressure test it anyways since I had it off. It had an incredibly small leak at around 35 psi. Changed it out and retested the oil a month later and all was good. My lesson was don't believe the pressure test test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
International Tech Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 i uploaded 2 pics of the crack in the block to my image gallery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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