Professionalism?

[Keith Browning]

It is not just a problem in our industry, apparently it runs ramped in every vocation but we already knew that. A month ago or so we had all of our lifts inspected and serviced. Some need repairs and two were just replaced. Yesterday I set up my in-ground truck lift to raise a long truck. My front post moves forward and back in an in-ground hole and a steel plate with extensions covers the hole... sometimes requiring an extension plate. This exposed a fitting in the hydraulic pipe that feeds the rear post. I observed fluid dripping from the fitting.

 

The lisf tech showed up and asks me what the problem was. I told him about the fitting. He laughed! My reply was I didn't think it was fucking funny as it is my safety that is in jeopardy here not to mention anyone elfe that might use the lift or happened to be under it. I pointed out that this lift was JUST INSPECTED to which he replied "Yeah, I inspected it!" Nice fucking job! Wipe that smile off of our face asshole!

[mchan68]

[Matt Saunoras]

I dropped a superduty last year because my rack is 1 1/2" higher on one side than the other. I wouldn't be surprised if another one falls off or better yet the whole floor collapses before the new shop is built.

[Jim Warman]

I dropped a superduty last year because my rack is 1 1/2" higher on one side than the other. I wouldn't be surprised if another one falls off or better yet the whole floor collapses before the new shop is built.

 

 

I hope that you reread what you wrote here, Matt. This would be akin to a truck driver continuing to operate a truck with faulty brakes or steering. If you feel the hoist is unsafe, I am sure that your widow and orphans... sorry, wife and children would feel much better if you became a little more proactive in your safety.

 

Part of being "professional" includes adopting an attitude a little less cavalier regarding your safety.

 

Disclaimer - it is a well known fact (or should be) that a hoist that is in a good state of repair can kill someone if it is used improperly, but it should also be obvious that using a hoist in a state of disrepair can also kill someone even if it is used in accordance with accepted practices.

 

Speaking of "accepted practices", how many here have ever had formal training in the proper use, care and maintenance of a lifting device? Include me in the "not me" crowd - but I have made the effort to learn. Begin with the operators manual for whatever specific hoist you are dealing with. Additionally, it is wise to visit the website for the Automotive Lift Institute. Knowing what you are dealing with just might allow you to reach a ripe old age.... without relying on blind luck or the grace of Yahweh. I didn't get to be this old by being stupid.

 

Being "professional" involves a certain amount of altruism. Being professional has us refusing to contravene laws - including emissions compliance laws. Being professional includes everything we do.

 

I think the last thing that Kieth wanted to indicate is that "other people fuck up means it is OK for us to fuck up".

 

FWIW, if your host is low on one side or the other - do ya think you might have a cable or chain getting ready to (if best comes for best) change your laundry schedule?

 

Your safety and the safety of your co-workers should be paramount. There is an inherent responsibility that you must not abdicate. Airline pilots do a walk around inspection of their machines (yes - it isn't an aeroplane - it is a machine) before they use them. It is only fitting that we inspect our machines before we use them.

 

Kieth - checking the oil level in your hoist should be at least a monthly consideration. It is, to me, obviously an older installation. In ground hoists are becoming rare and your hoist is one that I haven't used for about 3 decades. It is relatively easy to check the oil level in most air over hydraulic hoists and this is one of the few ways you have of detecting some sort of in-ground leak. While you visually identified a leaking fitting, your installation has many fittings you cannot see. While we are on the subject, Have you checked to see if there are provisions for greasing the packing rings on the hoist?

 

And the last FWIW, I usually tell the hoist guy what he needs to look for as he inspects my unit. I've sen enough of this "new, modern age" to know who I will and who I wont trust - I wont leave my personal safety to a stranger

[Matt Saunoras]

For anything to change someone besides me has to care because all my words of discontent have fallen on deaf ears.

 

Eventually there will be a management upheaval when the higher ups realize the current "leaders" have no idea how to run a real shop let alone one with 4 racks and 4 guys. Our store is a sister store to a larger lincoln dealership (where I came from) so I am aware of what it's like to be in a real shop with people that care. I am convinced things won't always be the way they are.

 

The floor is the problem, it's sinking because there is pretty much no support under my rack. Not only is the right side lower but the post leans in a little bit causing an even more dramatic difference when the arms are extended out. The shop is a garbage hole but I'm not ready to give up on it yet. The alternative dealerships in the area are not worth working for, even as a diesel tech I'd be given one rack and no extra space which is exactly where I'm at.

 

I'd have to give up Ford altogether to get out.

[Jim Warman]

For anything to change someone besides me has to care

Now I am really confused. You demonstrate that the hoist is truly unsafe to use, and then you continue to use it. That's like shooting craps with loaded dice. Hopefully, when things go ugly, the doctors will gather at your bedside and tell you when you can go back to work.... rather than other, less salient prospects.

 

Sorry to sound like I'm harping at you but you sound like a nice people.... and bad shit does happen to nice people. If you are waiting for something to change....well, what can I say? You will wait for stuff to change - and it wont - at least not until your local safety people declare that your demise was preventable.

 

I can't believe we are having this conversation.

[ktmlew]

Originally Posted By: Matt_Saunoras

For anything to change someone besides me has to care

Now I am really confused. You demonstrate that the hoist is truly unsafe to use, and then you continue to use it. That's like shooting craps with loaded dice. Hopefully, when things go ugly, the doctors will gather at your bedside and tell you when you can go back to work.... rather than other, less salient prospects.

 

Sorry to sound like I'm harping at you but you sound like a nice people.... and bad shit does happen to nice people. If you are waiting for something to change....well, what can I say? You will wait for stuff to change - and it wont - at least not until your local safety people declare that your demise was preventable.

 

I can't believe we are having this conversation.

Explain EXACTLY what Matt should do? Refuse to use the rack, right? That is the same as resigning from his job as they WILL send him home. Guarantee it!

 

We don't live in an area that jobs are falling-out-of-the sky like you do. You always make it seem so easy...it's not. There ARE shops where the managemnet considers the service dept an expense instead of a profit center. And no amount of conversation will affect their belief.

 

Been there done that.

 

But I'm sure you have all the answers...

[Keith Browning]

Jim has a valid point. IT'S YOUR SAFETY AND YOUR LIFE that is at stake here. If Matt brings this up to the management or owners and they do nothing about the hoist then he has every right to do something himself. Refusing to use it is a good place to start. If the company fires him he has very good grounds to seek damages. Can't do that when you are dead.

 

Guy's, this is nothing an anonymous call to OSHA won't bring to light.

 

As the operator of any equipment it is your responsibility to ensure it is safe and report any issues. Your employers are also responsible for regular inspections and probably required by law and their insurance companies.

 

For some information on this ----> http://www.autolift.org/

[Jim Warman]

Thank you, Kieth.

 

I wont pretend to know the laws in the US... But I'm pretty sure that they read pretty close to what ours do - your employer cannot demand that you do something illegal nor can he demand that you do something you consider unsafe.

 

Your personal safety and the safety of those around you in the workplace is of the utmost importance. Each and every one of us shares the responsibility to ensure that unsafe and/or illegal practices aren't allowed to happen. The "Nuremberg defense" didn't work in the 40s and it wont work any better today.

 

Gail - there's not a day goes by that I don't realize that I am expendable. There's not a day goes by that I don't wish I had done something differently or regret a decision or feel that I haven't performed as well as I feel I should or could have. I have no fucking idea how you came to think that anything I might have achieved could have come easy. I'm a high school drop out - I spend a lot of my own personal time studying things automotive in order to perfect my craft, expand my horizons and improve my career. There has been nothing magical in my endeavours that has given me any advantages you do not have. Hard work, honesty, integrity and determination are all I have.

 

In life, you must first set a goal - make it hard but not so hard you cannot achieve it. When you achieve your goal, do not stop. Set your next goal and work toward that. This year I turn 63. I am an old man in a young mans game.... Easy? I fucking wish.....

 

I must add that I am coming up on my 40th wedding anniversary. My wife has had Crohns disease as long as I have known her. In the 70s, little was known about this disease - we both thought it was something that could be cured eventually. (Oh, the stories I could tell). This could have been a game stopper if we allowed it. But we didn't allow it. There is an old saying - what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger. Another saying that my wife lives by - " put one foot in front of the other - repeat if necessary".

[ktmlew]

Fuck it. You are right. Always. You are the ONLY technician in the world that studies and tries to elevate their craft. The rest of us pale in comparison. None of us have had to care for a couple terminally ill parents or had any hardship, we are just whiners.

 

Good Luck. I'm out of hear.

[Jim Warman]

Gail, why be so defeatist? I'm not here trying to prove any sort of superiority. I simply stated that I didn't stand around waiting for things to happen.

 

You have clearly stated many of the problems you've had in the past. A lot of us have endured the same or similar problems. Some of us allow our circumstances to beat the crap out of us... and some of us refuse to give in.

 

Every opportunity I have ever had is an opportunity I have worked hard to develop. There is no silver spoon in this puppies mouth and I resent you making those kinds of statements.

 

Life is what we make of it. If life gives you lemons - make lemonade.

[mchan68]

Jim, I'm impressed. You speak (and write) English very well.

[Keith Browning]

This is going well.

[DwayneGorniak]

I have been in both Gail's and Matt's shoes long before I ever went to work at S.L. Ford. I even went as far as phoning O.H.& S myself with safety issues I had in in a previous shop I worked at and found myslef looking for a new job shortly after. And while you cannot be fired for wanting safety issues to be looked at, Once management in a dealership has the impression that you are a trouble maker, "YOUR FUCKING DAYS ARE NUMBERED"! And they usually have a really good suspicion as to whom the trouble makers are! With the economy the way it is in the U.S. that is financial suicide! And with what I see going on around here in Alberta and all the shops I visit these days, trouble makers days are numbered! You can and will be replaced with a foreign cheap laborer. That is the Mentality in the area I serve on right now. I am walking into shops now that don't have a fucking certified North American Tech pulling wrenches, yet it seems that if a Service Manager or at least one other person in the building holds a Journeyman ticket, they can fudge the system into believing that there are certified people there pulling wrenches. The other side I see is the fact that the majority of these foreigners are all buying their own shop equipment for the side work they do at home in their back yards. It scares me knowing that these uncertified backyarders are repairing vehicles on a regular basis that is aimed at everyone else down the highway.

 

 

Jim, you also need to think about the fact that you work in the only shop that I know of and have ever heard of that pays their techs to do hoist inspections and maintenance on a regular schedule during regular wroking hours as well. You work in a very rare shop with a very rare Dealer Principal! Doug is an amazing guy and I believe he is the last of his extinct bread. Therefore you are "FUCKING SPOILED"! That's just a joke. You are actually treated the way you should be. But you're stilled spoiled compared to everywhere else out there! Before I came to S.L Ford, I had worked at a dealership where I had dropped four trucks off my worn out old Hydra-lift hoist that had absolutely no locks on the "BENT" arms before they decided to replace the hoist. Then I dropped three trucks off that very same kind of Hydra-lift hoist at another dealership after that before they decided to replace that hoist for the very same reason. Yes, seven trucks I have dropped off of unsafe hoists before I ever came to work at S.L. Ford. I had a hard time getting used to the fact that we had so much maintenance and inspections in place at S.L. Ford. Because to this day it is the only dealership that I know of that has those measurements and guidelines in place. S.L. Ford and Doug Babiy should be used as role models in our industry, but to be honest with you, the rest of the industry doesn't give a rats ass about how safe you are at S.L. Ford. All they care about is Money and expenses. And your practices in that dealership are seen as nothing more than foolish expenses to all the other assholes in management out there.

 

Hell, it was only about four weeks ago that I walked into the Chrysler dealership in Wainwright to see the Fucking Shop Foreman of all people removing a transaxle from a mini van with two pry bars criss crossed from the strut towers and the rad support and holding the engine up with mechanics wire wrapped around the throttle body! And after explaining to him that the proper engine cradle was only $160.00 which was about the same value as the two pry bars he was using, he basicly told me in a Liberal pollictaly correct manner to Fuck Off!

 

You sir, are spoiled and have forgotten what it is like to work for fuckers like this out there! Take care! I know you are in a safe shop!

 

 

O.K. Now I'm ready for a long winded reply form you. But keep in mind that it just doesn't matter to most managers and shops out there!

[ktmlew]

Dwayne gets it. I don't for a minute believe anyone should HAVE to work with unsafe equipment. But I also KNOW jobs are scarce here while idiot mangers aren't!!!

 

As for my "defeatist attitude"? Yep. Guilty. Been beat down for too long.

[Keith Browning]

Dwayne gets it. I don't for a minute believe anyone should HAVE to work with unsafe equipment. But I also KNOW jobs are scarce here while idiot mangers aren't!!!

 

I do get it as well but like Jim I just think it important to point out that ultimately the bottom line is that WE are the only ones who can protect ourselves from this kind of thing. You have to love Jim's passion though... or maybe you don't. What is important is that each and everyone of us knows who we are and what we are willing to do or put up with to survive. Perhaps if there were more people willing to stand up and do the right thing there would not be as many of the idiot managers around or at least they wouldn't be getting away with this kind of shit as much.

 

 

Originally Posted By: ktmlew

As for my "defeatist attitude"? Yep. Guilty. Been beat down for too long.

I feel your pain. Unfortunately a large percentage of our colleagues do too and it is a problem. Has been for quite some time now too.

[DwayneGorniak]

And don't get me wrong! I agree with the fact that we need to take the initiative to make things better! But not very many places out there take your initiatives as an inviting idea. And there is a fine line between taking that initiative and sacrificing your job. If you whine too much they will do to you what happened to me and thousands of others in the past and present. If you are known as a trouble maker or whiner, they will starve the ever living sit out of your flat rate ass! Like I said, S.L Ford spoils their techs in a great way. All shops should be like that. But the reality is that they just aren't.

 

So how do you change the mentality of the greedy money hungry leadership or management out there? You can preach to the person who's paycheck this affects the most, but no there is no one out there to preach to the pricks that pay everyone to work with this unsafe shit! And that is their mentality..........You get paid to deal with this shit, now shut up, do your fucking job and deal with it!

 

Who is willing to become the door to door preacher to start the safety trend and preach to the Managers and owners? Any takers?

[Keith Browning]

Who is willing to become the door to door preacher to start the safety trend and preach to the Managers and owners? Any takers?

We have an excellent platform here and not just these forums.

[Jim Warman]

Dwayne.. who the fuck do you think was part of the impetus for hoist inspections? I'm not "lucky enough" to work at a shop that made these mandatory... I had a major role in making it happen.

 

When I was shop foreman, I made it part of my mandate that we would have no "lost time" injuries.

 

I don't go to work in the morning thinking "gee, I hope I get to go home this evening".

 

At the same time, I have a situation (and it hasn't been handed to me on a platter) where my opinion about shop safety matters. And there isn't a day goes by where I don't think I might eventually step across some line or another. At nearly 63 years of age you would think I'd be a little more concerned with job security rather than with "rockin' the boat".

 

Gail, I didn't tell Matt to do anything I haven't done. But if we remain silent, someone is going to got home in a body bag.

 

Now... YOU tell me what is wrong and what is right.

 

"I'm gonna keep on using an unsafe hoist because it's my job. My widow and orphans will remember my dedication".

[Jim Warman]

Going back over this thread, something Dwayne said that just wont let me "let it go".

 

With our last change in service managers, the mandatory hoist inspection has gone the way of the dodo bird and I have been remiss at pushing to have it reinstated.

 

Some misconceptions. You didn't get "paid" for doing hoist inspections. What it was is that your pay cheque was withheld until you turned in a completed hoist inspection form.

 

The implications... first - are any of us considered qualified to perform a lifting device inspection? Probably not, but aty least it should get us thinking - about what may or may not be safe or acceptable. "I don't feel comfortable lifting this there fore I wont". Ummmm, seems to me that there should be some thoughts about self-preservation.

 

Second, you sign a paper that says either "I think my hoist is safe" or it says "I think this and that are unsafe". Even though you may not be qualified to inspect a hoist for certification purposes, you deem your hoist safe incorrectly... nobody knows how that might play out should the unthinkable happen.

 

Now - about being "paid" to make sure you are safe. "I don't get paid to inspect my hoist for safety concerns so I wont". Dead is fucking dead. If you don't inspect your hoist (either for "free" or not) and something goes wrong, you might get to find out if there really is a god or not.... long before your widow wants you to.

 

Look at it this way... stop inspecting the tires and brakes on your work truck. You wont make any money doing it and if you do find something unsafe, you are going to lose a bunch of time getting it fixed...

[ktmlew]

Going back over this thread, something Dwayne said that just wont let me "let it go".

 

With our last change in service managers, the mandatory hoist inspection has gone the way of the dodo bird and I have been remiss at pushing to have it reinstated.

 

Some misconceptions. You didn't get "paid" for doing hoist inspections. What it was is that your pay cheque was withheld until you turned in a completed hoist inspection form.

 

The implications... first - are any of us considered qualified to perform a lifting device inspection? Probably not, but aty least it should get us thinking - about what may or may not be safe or acceptable. "I don't feel comfortable lifting this there fore I wont". Ummmm, seems to me that there should be some thoughts about self-preservation.

 

Second, you sign a paper that says either "I think my hoist is safe" or it says "I think this and that are unsafe". Even though you may not be qualified to inspect a hoist for certification purposes, you deem your hoist safe incorrectly... nobody knows how that might play out should the unthinkable happen.

 

Now - about being "paid" to make sure you are safe. "I don't get paid to inspect my hoist for safety concerns so I wont". Dead is fucking dead. If you don't inspect your hoist (either for "free" or not) and something goes wrong, you might get to find out if there really is a god or not.... long before your widow wants you to.

 

Look at it this way... stop inspecting the tires and brakes on your work truck. You wont make any money doing it and if you do find something unsafe, you are going to lose a bunch of time getting it fixed...

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with your point about inspecting the equipment we use. But I still haven't figured-out what the options are...if you "complain" to management and they say either use it or starve, then what do you do?

 

Quit?

[DwayneGorniak]

 

Some misconceptions. You didn't get "paid" for doing hoist inspections. What it was is that your pay cheque was withheld until you turned in a completed hoist inspection form.

Jim, that is where you are wrong. When I was there, us flat rate techs were to always punch our time tickets for our hoist inspections and we got paid 1 hour for the inspection and service. You are partially right. If there was not a 1 hour punch time on my time ticket at the end of the month, I did not get my paycheck untill I did my hoist inspection and service. Kenny used to always make sure we had our inspections on our time tickets. It may have been different for you because you were the Foreman and you were straight time. But us flat rate guys didn't get our paychecks untill we had that 1 hour punch time on our tickets and we had to write it on the ticket as well as fill out the inspection and maintenance form for the hoist. And I did get paid for that one hour. So did, Kyle and so did Adam!

[Jim Warman]

I stand corrected.

[Mr.Meanwrench]

I inspect the lifts here at my shop and have them inspected yearly by an outside vendor as well. My techs are welcome to inspect and report anything that they find and it will be addressed bfore the lift is used again PERIOD. I'll close the fucking doors before someone's life is put at risk. That is pure bullshit. Be careful your employer does not use those inspection sheets against you if something were to happen. I had a 14,000# drive on lift here that was 30 years old that had a concrete floor poured around the anchor points and the platforms and cross beams would flex with a 12,000# truck on it. Lift co failed it due to flexing and anchor points that could not be inspected. Took 3 years of failing inspections to replace it. Made copies of inspection reports an left them in my home safe in case something were to happen. I was a fucking idiot to even be under it. But I needed to feed my family. NEVER AGAIN! and i would never do it to my techs.

[DieselD]

 

I don't think anyone disagrees with your point about inspecting the equipment we use. But I still haven't figured-out what the options are...if you "complain" to management and they say either use it or starve, then what do you do?

 

Quit?

I have been in this situation too and been a victim of standing up for myself and refusing to use equipment etc. you dont always have another option, you cant always quit, if you open your mouth your on everyones shit list and your hours suffer to the point of not having a job is better etc

 

It really isnt as easy as refusing to use a lift and calling osha to report it. Some of the places I have worked your better off looking for a new job if that is the route you plan to take. Yes legally the employer cant shit can you over something like this but they sure can make your life hell when they find out. I dont know about some of you but I dont have the money or time for lawyers, even so think about this....You refuse to use your hoist, your boss does not think its unsafe and tells your to keep using it but you hold your ground. You then get shit canned for not following the instructions of your boss then proceed to file suit for wrongful termination. Ignore all the time and money you will have to invest to find the right lawyer all while your trying to find a new job and build up the relationships within the dealer to make your flat rate pay again. Say you actually win your case what now? You get back pay for lost wages? (which are probably needed to pay the lawyer) or get your job back? which you damn well know if you where not blacked listed before you sure as hell are now. Besides all that what happens when the word gets to all the other dealers in the area that your doing this? You have now fucked yourself on getting a job and making money at another dealer in your area.

 

I guess my point is I know where you guys are coming from in refusing to work on unsafe equipment however I also know the feeling of not being able to actually follow through with the actions of that decision. It isn't nearly as easy as it sounds.....