Bruce Amacker Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 When Johnny plugs in his Edge Juice to his 2007 F350 and gets caught by a roadside inspection for excessive smoke, who is to blame? Who will be prosecuted, Johnny, Edge or the guy who installed it? This is a gray area that can be debated forever. In my opinion, Johnny should be prosecuted because he's driving. In my opinion, the mfer's (insert whichever word you like here) and installers should also be held partly responsible. The problem is, how do you truly separate the devices sold for drag racing from the devices used on the street? The truth is that 95+% of these devices never see off-road use. In my opinion, pass laws WITH TEETH to prevent this type of offense. I don't consider myself a tree hugger, but if you look at the global warming thing, we've got big problems coming. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 ok now.. for most of you guys that try to void warrenties because of an aftermarket product.. heres 2 ???'s.. 1) have any of these trucks had a problem with banks?? 2) has the problem be diagnosed that the aftermarket product caused the failure.. ya i really despise the guys that blow smoke.. thats why here at banks we are eleminating that factor.. we also dont take out the cat because it is a federal law.. now as for tuning the engine all of our (gas) tuning is certified by carb and other epa stuff and for diesels as of right now there are no emissions requirements until the future.. ya there is gunna be emission testing going on in the future for the diesels but as of right now,, not.. as for the smoke blowing and getting caught.. i think the driver would be at fault. his truck, he's on highway, and he's probably being stupid at the same time.. the only thing i like to smoke is my tires.. now what i absolutly hate the most is when a dealer trys voiding a warranty on a truck that has nothing to do with the aftermarket product.. its completely elegal (here in the states. in canada it would probably fly.. whats interesting about edge tho is they do like a double pulse so it actually fires the injectors twice before it fires.. thats why they have the most smoke.. i wouldnt want to buy and f650 to tow my 40footer twice a month and suck done all that gas and drive it to work every day.. not happening... i can do that with my f350 and get better mpg's and still go threw a micky d's drive thru.. the perfect truck.. and i dont have to do this run jump thing to get in the thing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaysonfordtech Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Would head gasket failure due to excessive boost count? How about over heated and failed egr coolers due to overboost and over temp conditions. How about repeat egr valve failures due to massive carbon buildup due to over fueling. Drivability concerns due to aftermarket air filter setup having the maf in a different spot causing incorrect reading? I can go on if you would like. I have not seen any banks kits installed on customers 6.0 trucks, I suspect they are more expensive then the other brands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 ok now.. for most of you guys that try to void warrenties because of an aftermarket product.. heres 2 ???'s.. 1) have any of these trucks had a problem with banks?? 2) has the problem be diagnosed that the aftermarket product caused the failure.. To question 1 - I have had trucks with drivability issues that had banks and other aftermarket gear on them. I have also had trucks that only ran poorly after this aftermarket gear had been installed. Which question were you asking? To question 2 - Thankfully, it is not my position to decisively say that the aftermarket gear caused a failure. If there is a suspicion, then an engineer can be called in to examine the truck. Then it's Ford that looks like the bad guy to the customer, and not me. I've been on the side of Ford before. Quoting the warranty and policy manual, telling customers that their aftermarket stuff will void the warranty and such. I've faced pissed off customers who have gone on to call Ford and bitch to them. Then, sure enough, a day or two later I get a call from the service rep who says "go ahead and warranty the repair on that truck." Now, all the sudden, I'm the jackass who's causing grief to the customer and Ford comes swooping in to the rescue. Fuck that. There are bigger fish than me in this ocean. There is someone above me who is getting paid to make these decisions. If I'm considering pining a failure onto an aftermarket device, then it's time for someone else to make the call. So, yeah, to answer your second question, I've never diagnosed a failure to an aftermarket device. I leave that diagnosis to Ford while I get onto the next truck. I do feel that these motors are already pretty high strung as is. We've got headgasket failures on stock vehicles. Why would someone want to push their engine furthur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 ok so if you got headgaskets blowing on the stock trucks, what makes you say that an aftermarket product caused that on another truck.. its a common problem that shouldnt be blamed on the customer just cause the engine builder failed to use higher rated head studs in those engines.. but it still stands as a federal law that the manufacturer cannot void a warranty on a viehical unless the aftermarket product caused the problem.. magnusen moss act!! and your dealer doesnt have the time and money to spend testing.. so they try to blow the customers off.. iv delt with this many times and never lost.. (thanks to a good legal department).. but regardless how many problems have you seen on a truck with only banks products on it?? compared to all the other different aftermarket companies... i believe that we have been around the longest for the diesel part and we are the ones that started to put turbo chargers on the diesel.. i like how all these companies come to us to find out how we did it.. thats why ford is ass in on warrenty work, and most of the dealers are getting screwed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Look, Obviously Head gaskets can be a weak link in a 6.0, especially if the truck is pulling more than its rated for. Anything that increases boost pressure beyond what the manufacturer designers only exacerbates the problem, and in some instances, may be the defining factor in weather the head gaskets will fail for that particular customer or not. Off the top of my head I don't personally remember dealing with a Banks major failure, but I have dealt with drivability issues from them. I had a turbocharger one time that had a turbine wheel break off from over spooling and launched itself half way down the exhaust down tube. We had replaced the turbo a month prior, and this time the customer happened to leave a programmer in the glove box. I took the necessary action to protect FoMoCo. We even got a new truck sale out of the deal, and our sales dept took it in the shorts when they got stuck with the bill for fixing that trade in...so everyone is happy. My instructor at the Ford training center told us that buying a vehicle is like buying a box of marbles...if you drive it normally, you throw away 1 marble each time. At that rate, your box of marbles should last a long time. But if you soup up your car, you start throwing away handfuls of marbles each time, and the life expectancy of your investment is greatly diminished. Penis envy is fine, but don't expect Ford to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 and your dealer doesnt have the time and money to spend testing.. so they try to blow the customers off.. No, not quite. We don't have the time or money to reverse engineer an aftermarket setup - so we call in someone who does have the time and money to do so. I then simply follow what Ford tells me to do, since if they determine it is a warrantable repair, they'd be footing the bill. If they determine that it's non-warrantable, then Ford gets to inform the customer. If they argue, then I just steer them to Ford's customer service. In the meantime, I'll be dealing with another customer.... There is no "blowing the customer off." I simply shuttle the vehicle to the most qualified individual. Saves us from fighting with Ford or the customer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 i think that is a really bad analogy.. put it this way.. lets look at the fairly bad design of the 6.0 powerstoke -the engine itself... starting with air.. coming out of the turbo its smashed as it comes along the alternator, plastic endtanks and small boost tubes. then the air intake itself is very restrictive. no way to get mpgs out of that.. and then the exhaust system.. 3" downpipe with a very restrictive muffler that has and S and baffles in it.. now if you remove all those restrictions,, better air intake,, more dense air in,, larger intercooler with manderal bent 3 1/2" "metal" boost tubes. and a nice manderal bent "quite" straight through exhaust and get all the heat out that the engine is making,, you cant tell me that any engine wont last longer if you do that.. and with most of the people that haul with these trucks.. this truck will only last 150,000 miles if your lucky.. until you blow head gaskets and get oil leaks and loss of compression.. its to much strain on the engine.. i have some pics to compare stock to aftermarket,, and you can tell me which is better.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 You can't tell me that any engine wont last longer if you do that. So, you're going to tell me that you will reduce the exhaust restriction, increase the HP, increase the boost level, and this will LENGTHEN the life of the engine? What have you been smoking? This truck will only last 150,000 miles if you're lucky, until you blow head gaskets and get oil leaks and loss of compression. I won't debate there are some design flaws in this engine, but I also know many of these trucks with 200-300K+ miles and no major repairs. In fact most of them go this far without having the heads come off, as long as they remain stock. Dude, you're in the wrong forum. You should go hang out in one of the public PSD forums where you can shoot your mouth off and people will actually agree with you. There are too many guys on this forum who know what they're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 and with most of the people that haul with these trucks.. this truck will only last 150,000 miles if your lucky.. until you blow head gaskets and get oil leaks and loss of compression.. its to much strain on the engine.. i have some pics to compare stock to aftermarket,, and you can tell me which is better.. Are you serious? Show me some comparisons that say your air filter is more efficient than a Donaldson, then I may take some of your comments into consideration. I see 6.0s day in and day out with well over 300K, running completely stock, with original head-gaskets, functioning EGR systems, blowing no smoke and pushing no coolant. And don't get me started on the kind of mileage I've seen on VTs. My /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif The Powerstroke is pushed to the max when it comes out of the box... likely all due to the ongoing battle between the big 3 to have the most powerful diesel engine on the market... fine... but if all of these modifications were safe, why would they not come from the factory in said state? I'm glad that magg-moss does not apply up here, so those that can't leave well-enough alone can't hide behind it. Although, I have heard from quite a few techs south of the border that by the time the courts decide the case, the warranty of the truck will likely have expired, and legal fees would have gone well over the repair price... but hey, Ford has lawyers on retainer, you probably can't say that about the folks that buy these products on (IMO) false promises of more safe power with better fuel economy... without getting all sides of the (possible) story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 I think we're missing the point.... it isn't about that pile of metal and plastic sitting in the driveway... it is about people and planets. Most here are too young to recall news reports and pictures from the 50s and 60s... People in the Los Angeles basin wearing protective masks simply so they could venture outdoors.... Smog alerts were big news.... Are we to return to those days in order to reduce the hobbling effect of emissions controls? Are we going to place a machine in a position more important than people? Of worthy note... we still haven't heard about any tailpipe emissions other than smoke.... and I'm getting the feeling that this is what is getting blown up my @ss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 ok i do have some specs on that exhaust emissions data coming soon.. we have done some test with a stock truck, and a truck with a full kit on it.. both f350 with 6.0's now we are currently working on the block off and once that is done we will have it tested also.. we are looking a couple weeks out do to dyno time., the block off will probably be done to both trucks. just for testing.. please note that both trucks still have stock cat installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 Just out of curiosity...What happens to the ones that blow up during the product development stage. Does Banks pay to have them fixed, or do you remove any evidence of "foul play" and tow it in to the nearest dealer for warranty???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 honestly, we have never blown up an engine or tranny from and oem truck.. you have no idea the stuff they do here when testing.. they can do things that you didnt even think was possible. we can actually digitize the truck and design through it.. saves time banging on metal on a work bench... we have spare engines here... we start with the engine itself.. on every truck we buy an engine,, then we stick it on our engine dyno.. its almost like a truck simulator.. it makes the engine seem like its in a truck.. so we can put it under different loads. we know everthing that this engine is doing, compared to the factory pcm.. so once we do all the testing on that for about 3 months, we go to the truck.. we start with all the airflow improvements before we do a tuner.. all the airflow is calibrated to the tuner.. we then put the truck on our chassis dyno and drive the truck.. once we put 80,000 miles or 3000 hrs on the truck we release the product.. check this out.. pretty interesting. http://bankspower.com/DmaxTypeD-1.cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 ok i have heared in some states that they are already testing diesels for emissions.. now in order to test for emissions on a diesel you need to know what the standards should be.. nobody knows.. carb hasnt released anything.. nobody has released anything.. so theres nothing to be met.. anybody have any info on this.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Tier 2 Diesel emissions standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 ok.. now weres the tests that you have to pass.. no smog places in california have any equipment to test a diesel.. those are just standards that they want but thats not a requirement or test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 While the tier 2 regulations are not federally required until 2010, some states have begun enforcing them since the beginning of 2007. Most states use a "smoke opacity meter" to test for diesel emissions. This device measures the smoke from a vehicle's tailpipe. The darker the smoke means the greater the pollution and the higher the opacity reading. Measuring CO2, CO and NoX is done with new emission sampling testers that have been developed and are now available in more compact versions than previously only available for industry. Be certain of this; it is coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I just read in a new diesel performance mag that Navistar announced that its Maxxforce engines will be run with EGR systems in 2010. They will do this using even more sensors that are highly sophisticated/sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 ok but how do they come up with the numbers for that.. what is to much smoke. how do you get standards for that. i saw the chart but how did they get those numbers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I don't know for sure, but I'd bet its probably the "happy medium" voted on in congress after lobbyists from the oil companies, and lobbyists from the enviornmental science community each bitch at eachother. That is how most laws are made, why would this be different? It's kind of like making sausage, its good to eat, but you don't want to watch the process of creating it. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hammer2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 BRIEF HISTORY OF "SAUSAGE MAKING" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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