6.4 EGR cooler failure!

Coolcat390 · May 17, 2008

I got a 6.4 F350 in the other day with the customer saying that the engine is losing coolant. Already had 2 rads put in it. Pressure tested it, but no coolant is on the ground but the pressure is droping. Call the hotline and told me to pull both EGR coolers and tested them. Sure enought the horizontal cooler is leaking. Im starting to get that sinking feeling again. First one for our shop, any one eles see this?

Jeff_E · May 17, 2008

Yup, had the same thing myself. You can replce it through the drivers wheel opening if you remove the inner fender. It still sucks really bad, but it is possible. Don't forget to order new clamps. And if you don't already have moon wrenches, I strongly recommend them. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/puke.gif

G. Bedford · May 17, 2008

We have replaced a few horizontal coolers. The first rig, both coolers were removed and benched tested to find only the horizontal was bad. Ford kicked the ticket back and would not pay for the time on the vertical cooler since it had not failed. How are you to tell where the coolant is entering unless you test? So now we play the odds and just do the horizontal cooler.

Coolcat390 · May 18, 2008

Hotline told me to remove both coolers and test them. i guess there is no real good way of finding out which on is bad until you leak test them. I got them out in a hour and a half, didnt have to remove every thing the book told me. Our field engineer told me that id the expanion joint on the vertical cooler moves or gets bent that you should replace that one too. Along with hunting down all the nuts, bolts, and clamps this is going to be a nightmare.

Jim Warman · May 18, 2008

We have replaced a few horizontal coolers. The first rig, both coolers were removed and benched tested to find only the horizontal was bad. Ford kicked the ticket back and would not pay for the time on the vertical cooler since it had not failed. How are you to tell where the coolant is entering unless you test? So now we play the odds and just do the horizontal cooler.

I've taken to calling on hotline lots... for absolutely no reason other than being able to attach a printout of hotline recommendations along with the contact ID.

This isn't going to be the end of the warranty nazi mentality, but we need to hedge our bets every chance we get...

Keith Browning · May 18, 2008

I've taken to calling on hotline lots... for absolutely no reason other than being able to attach a printout of hotline recommendations along with the contact ID.

You betcha. This is a common sense topic. You simply cannot tell which of the two EGR coolers is leaking unless you REMOVE BOTH and TEST THEM BOTH. A shop manual section and page reference or a Hot-Line printout is all you need to combat these bean counters. He should have been paid to R&I both regardless of the fact that he only replaced one. We know this, the Hot-Line Engineers know this, the FSE's know this and the shop manual knows this. Why do we have to waste our time documenting this crap for these people?

Coolcat390 · May 19, 2008

The bottom line is that there the idoits paying us.

DamageINC · May 19, 2008

The bottom-er line is that we're idiots for dealing with this, lol.

Ahh... I can't even complain at this point. Looking under the hood of a 6.4 truck doesn't even phase me anymore. It's so sadistic that I can't help but just sit back and accept it's inevitability to provide more headache than it's predecessor.

I'm sure in time, we'll have it figured out like the 6.0 and eventually we'll have our own little ways of getting things done.

Dave

Keith Browning · May 19, 2008

Well Dave, you can look on the bright side, we might get lucky that the 6.4 wont have head gasket problems and the new stuff will keep things "fresh and interesting."

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

Way to go Keith, look for the positives! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/boink3.gif

DamageINC · May 19, 2008

Hehehe don't get me wrong - I love actually working, figuring all this stuff out, taking it all apart and fixing it. I really do. It just gets hard to stay motivated when you realize how poorly we're paid sometimes.

It's hard to complain about getting money for something you love, but the fact that it takes it's toll on your body at the end of the day kinda sucks the fun out of it. And the paycheck becomes more of a slap in the face afterwards, lol.

Rest assured that I'll be ass-deep into a 6.4 sometime again before the end of the month. As for now, I've got a 6.0 boom-truck that needs head gaskets.

Dave

G. Bedford · May 20, 2008

Well, we also use Hotline, but found out the hard way that auditors trump Hotline. Hotline approval/recommendations are not a "get out of jail free" card. As stated in the W&P Manual "Phone approval, video imaging approval or TECHNICAL HOTLINE(emphasis added) involvement with a repair does not negate dealer responsibility to adhere to the provisions of the Warranty and Policy Manual and to verify that repairs are needed due to a defect". So the next time you have, say, a combustion gas leak into the fuel system on a 6.0l and Hotline says to replace all the injectors on that bank. Think twice. Hotline doesn't care about your 126 and they won't be the ones charged back the ticket for over-repair. If what the Hotline says to do doesn't meet your smell own test then don't just barge ahead and do it because they said to. You are held responsible by the boys carrying the brief cases and wearing wing tip shoes.

BrunoWilimek · May 20, 2008

The tech next to me just finished putting a new horizontal oil cooler in one of these. He removed both to test and found only the horizontal one leaking. Not a very nice job, by the amount of grumbling and swearing coming from that bay. Seems like they made it as difficult as possible to work on without lifting the cab. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/2cents.gif

Tony302600 · May 20, 2008

I heard that Hotline doesn't have anything to do with Ford other then being contracted through them. So we're not really talking to Ford engineer's? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif

Cetane, bury this assumption for me with your knowledge of the whole Hotline system.

DamageINC · June 19, 2008

I actually just diag'd a horizontal cooler failure on-vehicle and am pretty confident that the vertical is fine.

I just separated the vertical and horizontal coolers by removing the 2 nuts that join them (by the flex-joint). Then, stuck a small chisel between the 2 coolers to keep them seperated. Pressurized the cooling system to 18-19 psi and waited 15 munites - sure enough, I get coolant *pouring* out of the horizontal cooler when I came back to check on it. The vertical never dripped once in the 5 minutes I spent inspecting them from underneath. I am still going to bench test it, but have only ordered the horizontal cooler.

(I also need to replace the DPF and DOC per hotline request due to a retarded amount of coolant in the exhaust now.)

Dave

DamageINC · June 20, 2008

Well, now that I've gotten started with this, I'm convinced that I'd rather work on a 6.0 with a hangover and no thumbs than have to continue working on 6.4's. What a fucking mess.

I also love how the SLTS for the horizontal cooler is 5.6 hours, and the SLTS to replace the left exhaust manifold pays 5.7. It's the exact same job!! It really shouldn't have any effect on me though because I had to remove the vertical cooler and still need to bench test it, so I'll be getting the 7.8 or whatever it is for both coolers. Still, what an asskicker. I can only hope that it'll be like the 6.0 and we'll just "get used to it" in time.

Dave

rlchv70 · June 23, 2008

I actually just diag'd a horizontal cooler failure on-vehicle and am pretty confident that the vertical is fine.

I just separated the vertical and horizontal coolers by removing the 2 nuts that join them (by the flex-joint). Then, stuck a small chisel between the 2 coolers to keep them seperated. Pressurized the cooling system to 18-19 psi and waited 15 munites - sure enough, I get coolant *pouring* out of the horizontal cooler when I came back to check on it. The vertical never dripped once in the 5 minutes I spent inspecting them from underneath. I am still going to bench test it, but have only ordered the horizontal cooler.

(I also need to replace the DPF and DOC per hotline request due to a retarded amount of coolant in the exhaust now.)

Dave

I wouldn't do this. Distorting the bellows on the vertical cooler will likely lead to failure.

mpatron · August 1, 2008

True. The exhaust engineer was adamant that her design would not tolerate bending of the bellows. They are for heat expansion ONLY, just like the up-pipe bellows. As far as hotline: They are usually either fresh graduates, or former techs. Thay have the computer at their desks to look up procedures, and they have access to TSB's that are in-process, and they may even have access to engineering. They still have to follow diagnostics procedures like anyone else. Like FSE's, they have no "warranty procedure override" authority, or magic wand....in fact, I have a tech in class whose manager always forces him to call in even when basic tests reveal no definite fault. Apparently, the foreman expects hotline to pull answers out their ass. He explained this to hotline and the hotline "engineer" actually told him to go to the tool truck and buy a a magic wand for his foreman. That was great!

LARRY BRUDZYNSKI · August 1, 2008

SNIFF-SNIFF smells like the 6.0 X 10 all over again. OH NO 6.0 + .4 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif + .4

Tony302600 · August 2, 2008

True. The exhaust engineer was adamant that her design would not tolerate bending of the bellows. They are for heat expansion ONLY, just like the up-pipe bellows.

I'm going to tell you a little story about the 6.4L We have a tech that goes by his own rules in the diesel shop. He hasn't followed the exhaust alignment procedure on 2 trucks, with no failure's. Trucks come in for maintainence with no sign of failure. ( Yes...the same exhaust that is going to fail 99% of the time if not torqued correctly )

He also doesnt follow the injector/high-pressure line torquing procedures. Just cranks them down...again, no failure in site after repair, and customer stated that truck's oil hasn't climbed since repair?

So what's the deal /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif

On Edit: I will always follow the procedure because i dont want to do it twice.

Tony302600 · August 2, 2008

I like the hotline engineer's...ya theres a few oddballs..but on the diesel side....those guy's are top notch. They joke with me, help me out to the best ability, even call back to make sure i fixed the truck sometimes. I hear hotline engineer's always talking bout how sooo many techs dont bother to look at OASIS, and 50% of their call's end up in them telling the tech "there is a tsb on your exact concern, please check oasis." Why do you think there is that recording stating "if you have this problem, check this tsb, if you have this problem check ths tsb." I mean c'mon.

I like the diesel guys at hotline. I cant stand the gas/drivebility. They are assholes. Haven't had one cool non-snotty engineer.

Heres one rec. from a hotline engineer on the gas drivebility side of the shop. ( another techs problem not mine )

"for the evap codes on your vehicle, please find a ball bearing and roll down evap line to clear out any spider webs or debris that has collected in each line"

Jim Warman · August 3, 2008

Manuel.... true that hotline has no warranty override ability, on one hand though, I am the end of the diag chain in our shop. I will often call hotline to get a "second opinion" about being on the right track or to simply clear the cobwebs... Other times, I will feel that I might have a stinker in the works and I'll start to build a paper trail. Having that hotline recommendation in your hot little hands can go a long way towards swaying a warranty claim decision.

Tony.... all of these repair procedures receive the "endorsement" of an engineer.... Some of this stuff is shear overkill because no engineer is going to sign off on a simpler technique - not with the chance that something might cost the mothercorp several millions and make one somewhat "unhireable"....

Notice how repair procedures are being constantly updated...

As for your diesel guy - two possible ways to look at it.... Zen and the art of diesel repair - become one with the wrench and align your plain with that of the fastener... repeat your mantra softly as you align the engines karma with the cosmos. Not so far fetched.... the more years you apply yourself to this career, the better the "feel" you should have when judging fastener torque - even to the one finger = 10 ft/lb pull, two fingers = 20 ft/lb and so on (this is really rough stuff and I do not condone forgetting about the torque wrench - but after doing this for several years - it should be like a guitarist knowing how hard to pluck a string for a desired effect).

OTOH, it could be a matter of the dice are still rolling... I have a 4R75 FQR apart.... it took nearly 40,000 kms for the pump bolts to back out far enough to cause driveability concerns.... The dice were rolling for an extremely long time.