6.0 with no base oil pressure.

rgarver · April 22, 2009

Have an 05 6.0 here that I hope someone can help me with.I replaced IPR last week for a no start and it ran ok. Customer had oil changed and left. Truck gets towed back today,quit on road and will not start.Codes,P0336,P0341,P2284.It will build 300-500 psi of icp pressure if you crank it long enough,also noticed gauge did not move.Checked oil pressure at EOT port and have none,checked regulator valve in front cover and NPF,removed oil filter and cranked engine and it would pump oil into the housing ok. I then noticed that the oil had a lot of metal particles in it, almost like metallic paint.I have pressure tested hi-pressure system and have not found any leaks. Any ideas where I may be loosing base oil pressure and where all the metal particles may be coming from? Hope someone has seen something like this before,THANKS

Bruce Amacker · April 22, 2009

This is ugly. As for your 336 and 341, they are likely false DTC's from cranking too long. Ignore them if RPM reads correctly in scan data while cranking. Your metallic oil is going to be a problem, I'd probably pull the LPOP out for inspection because it's the easiest to get at, but it's likely you're going deeper inside very soon. An oil analysis is not a bad idea if you have a bit of time or a Cat dealer nearby, who can commonly do it on the spot. Napa/Wix PN 4077, $14.

Good Luck!

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rgarver · April 23, 2009

Found it!After much thought and debate in the shop I decided to remove hi-pressure pump cover and have a look and there it was!The front brg in the hi-pressure pump was shot and part of the brg was just loose and flopping around.It will get a new pump, ipr and whatever else hotline wants to do since it is still under warranty.Thanks for your response Bruce and I hope this information will help somebody else!

Mikill · April 24, 2009

I would think you would still get base oil even if the hpp is causing the problem.

BrunoWilimek · April 30, 2009

I would think you would still get base oil even if the hpp is causing the problem.

That is correct. The oil pump inside the front cover provides base oil pressure. However, I have found that if you use the instrument panel oil pressure guage as a base oil pressure indicator, it seems to take an extremely long time to register. I don't know if this applies to the oil temperature port as well, but it might. As the ICP was 300-500, chances are there was base oil pressure all along, but I was fooled once, when I thought I was tracing a low ICP, but instead found a broken piece of a STC fitting retaining ring had passed through the low pressure pump, scoring it all to hell, yet I still had some pressure built up from the high pressure pump. Posted Image

DieselD · May 15, 2009

bruno Ive had that same problem. no base engine oil pressure, remvoed the gerotor and found it all busted up with the typical metal debris getting run through it. found the perfect shape of the snapring that belongs in the stc fitting imprinted in the gerotor. removed the hpop and found the obvious stc leak. that was a fun one to claim under warranty

BrunoWilimek · May 15, 2009

I was lucky on mine, since I phoned hotline and described the shape and description of the ring, and he confirmed what it was, so there was a history of the concern in the system before I completed the repair, including what the hotline engineer recommended. The STC fitting had been replaced a week prior to the no start and that was also a help in determining what caused the second failure.

Tony302600 · May 16, 2009

Now i have a question for you guys. I had a 186,000 mile excursion before i left that was a no-start, had a crap load of metal debris in the IPR. I looked at history and at 145,000 the truck had a new front cover, gerotor pump, all the things associated with that repair, claiming that the pump was eating away the front cover causing metal in the system. I advised the customer that i can try a IPR and if it runs we'll see how it goes, but eventually it might fail again. He wanted me to put a IPR in it. I did, truck came back 2,000miles later same thing, on a hunch i checked the oil and it had small metal particles on the oil filter and in the sunlight you can see aluminum specs in the oil. Now when you see the metal specs in the oil like that, is it pretty much a given it needs a motor? (out of warranty?)

Bruce Amacker · May 16, 2009

Probably. An oil analysis is cheap, I'd recommend that to start with so you have actual numbers on what's in the oil and how much (Napa/Wix PN 4077, $14). The analysis sheet will give you an idea of where to look by the composition of the particles. Present this to the cust and let him make the call. Better look at the intake screen under the oil cooler, too.

Good Luck! (or wish that to the cust.. Posted Image )

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Aaron · May 16, 2009

Bruce - is that a good NAPA part number for Canada, too?

I would like to see exactly how much diesel fuel my truck has in it's oil.

Jim Warman · May 16, 2009

Aaron, I think it is the NAPAs we need to worry about in Canada. Dwayne and I think that these are those longer elements that have KwikeeLoob throwing away Ford filter lids.....

Aaron · May 16, 2009

Wait...that's not an oil analysis part number?

The booze is still wearing off, so bear with me.

I buy my oil/fuel filters from Murray's or Otterzone in Detroit. Motorcraft filters, for $15-20 cheaper than I can get 'em for here, INLCUDING the exchange.

Bruce Amacker · May 16, 2009

It should be, Wix is the same PN with an extra digit prefix, like 34077 or something like that. Call a Napa or Carquest and have them run the PN. They won't likely have it in stock, my Napa didn't stock it until I started buying them regularly. USPS in the states get $2 or something extra to ship it. I think oil analysis is one of the most overlooked forms of diagnostics. It will tel you a shitload about what's going on inside, but techs have no patience and don't want to take the time to run one. If they had the results in an hour they'd be doing them every day.

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Good Luck!

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Aaron · May 16, 2009

What's usually the turnaround time?

Aaron · May 16, 2009

Well, i looked at the napa canada site, and it doesnt show up. I'll have to get them on the phone later when i get rid of the dry mouth.

HOWEVER - I did find this: http://www.napaonlinecanada.com/uap/Client/en/Napa-Online/guideconseils/guideconseils.asp?id=128

Good fuckin idea. I don't know how to do this myself, so I'll get it from the INTERNETS! Use RAMPS?! How are you supposed to get the wheel off when the car's on RAMPS.

Because, as we all know:

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Whoo...Sorry about that guys, little out of control today.

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Bruce Amacker · May 16, 2009

10 days or so.

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Jim Warman · May 16, 2009

There, ya go... it's me and MY flat rate reading again... In my defence, I didn't get out of the shop until after 10 last night...

Tony302600 · May 18, 2009

Probably. An oil analysis is cheap, I'd recommend that to start with so you have actual numbers on what's in the oil and how much (Napa/Wix PN 4077, $14). The analysis sheet will give you an idea of where to look by the composition of the particles. Present this to the cust and let him make the call. Better look at the intake screen under the oil cooler, too.

Good Luck! (or wish that to the cust.. )

Well Bruce, if the customer doesn't want to do/wait for a oil sample and you see that the oil is covered in the small metal flakes, then its pretty much a given it needs a motor right?

Bruce Amacker · May 18, 2009

Well Bruce, if the customer doesn't want to do/wait for a oil sample and you see that the oil is covered in the small metal flakes, then its pretty much a given it needs a motor right?

Yes, it probably needs a motor. It's always nice to know what failed, so that's why I suggested an analysis. The next words out of the customer's mouth when you tell him there's excessive metal in the motor are going to be "Where did the metal come from?" and I always like to have a intelligent informed answer besides "Duh, I'm not sure". If the cust is in a hurry to make a decision, you can always present him with the option of waiting for an analysis. Either way, you sound like a better tech if you at least suggest one. By the composition of the material in the oil the analysis will make a suggestion on where the failure is- bearing material, aluminum, steel, iron, etc. The Napa/Wix (Stavely Services) spectrochemical analysis checks for 24 different materials and gives you a PPM on each. I'm big on having numbers, rather than saying, "too much". In this case, it might also give info towards a previous repair done improperly.

IH had a problem on DT's with roller lifters turning and trashing a cam lobe. You'd think they'd hang a short block when this happened, but commonly they'd replace the cam, lifters, main and rod bearings and ship it. You know a ton of metal went through those engines, but a patch job seemed to work.

Good Luck!

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