TSB 09-8-3 and the Rad Kit Plus

[DwayneGorniak]

Has anyone had the Rad Kit Plus fool them yet? I just Diaged one of these where the Rad Kit Plus would not leak down. I leave it on for well over fifteen minutes when I do these. This one in particular did not leak down. But pulled the EGR cooler off and the sum bitch is wet in the back and fails with air on it. Talk about egg in the face.

[Brad Clayton]

That tool is definetely a gamble for something like that. I use it strictly for what it was designed for and that is to completely fill the cooling system.

 

I have had mine, which is an "air lift" and ten times better than the high dollar Blue Point unit, for about 8 years now and it was basically built to combat the piss poor cooling system designs on the Nissan Quest/Mercury Villager. Anyone who has tried to fill one of these will no what I am talking about. It also was nice to use on the 3.8L head gasket era.

 

I actually am having trouble remembering the last time I filled a cooling system the old fashion way.

[BrunoWilimek]

Not the radkitplus, but same principle. Often an A/C system holds a perfect vacuum for 15 minutes or even more, only to spew refrigerant out a relatively large hole after recharging and pressurizing the system. Personally, I feel that using the radkitplus as a leak detector is not what it was designed for and therefore not a valid test method. Pressure testing is much better. Of course, whichever rocket scientist wrote the TSB must know better, right?

[DwayneGorniak]

Thanks for your opinions. I feel the same way. This fuckin TSB sucks balls.

[Aaron]

I like how there's less time for the cooler pair than there was before, and now you have to rebuild the damn thing.

[Brad Clayton]

I took note from this site and keep an old oil cooler top cleaned up and ready to go. I also got the parts department to stock an oil pressure sensor.

[G. Bedford]

Next time place a stethescope on the body of the EGR cooler while you have it sucked down. You can actually hear the coolant being pulled through the hole by the suction. Kinda like the sound of sucking through a straw, but can be slight. Try it on one you know is bad to get the feel of it.

[Jim Warman]

Resist the urge to put all of your eggs in one basket....

 

Vacuum testing a cooling system is a powerful tool... it isn't the only tool available to us for this purpose, as we all know....

 

Pressure testing a cooling system is another tool.... I have seen cases where one works and the other doesn't... EITHER WAY!!!!!

 

I have seen the odd cooling system that wont indicate a leak when using vacuum... Gee... the test isn't accurate - let's not do that any more.....

 

I have seen cooling systems that seal better when we add pressure - one of the "other" tests we can do. So... obviously, that test doesn't work all the time either... so let's not do it.

 

That leaves us with pretty much nothing to do - let's all go home and watch soap operas.....

 

I'm an ass.... because there are times I stray from the TSB.... While I try very hard to be sure I have included EVERYTHING the TSB wanted, there are times we need to stray...

 

Back when I was allowed on inFord, we got into a discussion on cooling systems. I remarked about the number of restricted cooling stacks I see and someone asked me about where we were told to check for debris in the radiator....

 

PPTs.... WSMs.... TSBs... these all assume that we have a familiarity with what we do... Often, some of the absolute basics are overlooked by the technical writers..... TECHNICAL WRITERS.... Often, when someone asks me how to diagnose a concern, I will forget to include checking things that I do automatically... things that come without forethought.... Overheating/coolant loss... is the cooling stack plugged? The TSB doesn't tell you to look....

 

But the TSB represents the MINIMUM testing you should do - not everything you can do (when is the last time you found a PPT in the PC/ED that couldn't be done faster and better than Fords convoluted ordeal?).

 

Dwayne... the radkit failed to show a leak.... but didn't you already pressure test the cooling system as per 09-08-03? And it likely passed there?

 

And..... ermmmmm, isn't "visual inspection" another test step? Egg on the face? Hardly? The planets were in a particular line that day and that is what you got.... as the concern caught and corrected? Seems to me that that was the desired outcome...

 

Testing cylinder seal is probably the best example.... I'll cheat and use a gas engine in my rant.... relative compression is one test... but what if all the cylinders are "soft". Does this make relative compression useless? Or does it mean that we have a symptom, relative compression didn't reveal the problem and now we test further???

 

So we test intake manifold vacuum.... and that might have us check compression.... and that might have us do a cylinder leak test or maybe a running compression test or testing for exhaust restriction....

 

Blame the TSB? Since when did we abdicate thought?

 

FWIW, I get my attitude from all of my loving brides doctors.... they have often cut her open just to see what is going on... even after running a whole bevy of tests.... and coming up with all manner of "what they think" is going on....

 

And what blows me away.... electrical is hard on most guys.... even thought electrical rules are set in stone and binding.... noithing will beat a proper volt drop test on a malfunctioning load....

 

Mechanical testing can be as fickle as can be.... and some guys put implicit faith in only part of a "full test procedure"...

 

I've been doing this for 40 years... and the best advice I can give you is to expect the unexpected....

[DwayneGorniak]

My freakin eyes are bugged out from reading all that Jim. The TSB still sucks Balls. It should be a Recall. But then again, the gumamnent would have to bail Ford out if that were ever to happen. And I don't think anyone ever said they would quit doing a test. I just got fooled by actually doing a test that doesn't allways produce accurate results. But 135 psi of shop air to the cooler provided more accurate results.But he TSB still sucks Balls!

[Jim Warman]

I set out with quite a diatribe on this and I apologize to any that endured it...

 

But, after all was said and done, it occurred to me that I'd mentioned something about directed diagnostics some time ago... this was while mentioning the interactive PC/ED (along with it's idiotic circuit testing).

 

These TSBs have taken on a life of their own - no longer a "streamlined diagnostic", they have become a directed diagnostic - I imagine partly in response to ones willingness to throw a "trifecta" at a truck.

 

As for testing cooling system integrity with the rad kit? It is a very useful test... but there are times that the test will not be conclusive. Same goes for the pressure test.... sometimes applying pressure only serves to seal the system better... And that is where the visual test takes over....

 

Back to the TSB... it's sad that Ford feels the need to look so closely over our shoulders, but I don't think it was unexpected. I think a lot of trucks got a "trifecta" more as a customer service than a customer need...

 

Once again, the techs that care get painted with the same brush as the techs that don't

[DwayneGorniak]

Another thing that I really don't like about this TSB is the fact that they have eliminated the fan clutch diagnosis. While many of us may know to diagnose it properly, there are spring chickens coming up in this trade that may not know fan clutches were a concern in the previous TSB's. If I had more time right now, I could mention allot more that I don;t like about the TSB. But I gotta work.

[Aaron]

Another thing that I really don't like about this TSB is the fact that they have eliminated the fan clutch diagnosis. While many of us may know to diagnose it properly, there are spring chickens coming up in this trade that may not know fan clutches were a concern in the previous TSB's. If I had more time right now, I could mention allot more that I don;t like about the TSB. But I gotta work.

 

Not only that, but it doesn't mention the fan clutch at ALL, does it?! I don't think it does, if I recall correctly. But I may be wrong. *hiccup*

[Jim Warman]

Ummmmm - flat rate reading - we are ALL guilty.

 

Step 1 <Inspect the cooling system as per the Workshop Manual (WSM), Section 303-03 for external leaks, oil or fuel contamination, and/or diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). If external coolant leaks, oil or fuel contamination of coolant, and/or DTC(s) P0480 / P0528 are found, do not continue with this procedure. Refer to WSM, Section 303-03, Powertrain Controls/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) or any other applicable articles as needed.>

 

Now.... cooling system diag "should" be a no brainer (when is the last time anyone looked at the front of EVERY component in the cooling stack.... )... I smell an MT operation here....

 

Have you referred to 303-03? What about EEC tests? If the VDF isn't working correctly you are most likely going to retrieve DTCs.... if the VDF isn't working correctly, you will most likely have a concern written up as "engine overheats" or "engine runs hot" - as a tech, it is up to YOU to perform your diag rather than rely on what some asshole in a pick up truck "thinks" is wrong.

 

A long time ago, back when I was allowed on InFord - someone felt the need to ask me where I learned to check the rad for restricted air flow... WTF is that?

 

Is this a case of needing to relearn how to write something up?

 

No VDF diagnostics? I don't think that it is Fords pecker you feel stuffed up your back door.... It could be your own....

[DwayneGorniak]

It ain't flat rate reading at all. I just don't believe that we should forget about looking at fan pids if we don't get a DTC for it. I don't know about you, But I have seen faulty fans with out dtc's. Don't forget that we live in Alberta where riggers have more money than brains and 50% of these idiots are running chips or tuners. What are you gonna do when that customer pulls his tuner out out his truck out front of the the dealership and leaves us with a P1000? And how about the other scenario that we seem to see way too often now, where another dealership puts an IAT sensor in it for overheating or a thermostat and clears all DTC's? Oh well I guess we don't have to look at the fan clutch now, do we? Like I said, many spring chickens may not think this way and it is something we shouldnt overlook.

[Jim Warman]

I am going to refer to step one of the TSB which, in its most basic understanding, is telling us to make sure that the coolant loss isn't due to some other concern....

 

"Inspect the cooling system as per WSM 303-03".... and 303-03 states "verify the concern". If the fan is pooched, you are going to overheat BEFORE you have coolant loss... If the engine doesn't overheat, why would we suspect a fan concern?

 

And here-in is one way to consider this concern - does the motor overheat because of coolant loss? Or is the engine loosing coolant due to overheating? The order of business will determine which direction we will go. I heartily suggest reviewing the appropriate section in the WSM - NOTHING is too basic to warrant a review of current practices.

 

It is important to keep things simple.... whether the job is retail or warranty we do need to keep a tight rein on costs - and this will include avoiding any unnecessary test procedures. (Rising costs and unnecessary steps have resulted in TSBs like 09-08-03).

 

Finally... monitoring fan PIDs for the sake of monitoring fan PIDs will reveal????? However, we might decide to perform PPT AH3 (the VDF performance test.... ) but we will be forgetting a very basic premise.... do not perform a PPT unless directed to. Everything we do should have a "why" attached to it...

 

On edit.... how many bad VDFs do we see on these engines.... and what is the overwhelming symptom?

[Brad Clayton]

I keep a Symptom-System-Component-Cause chart hanging on my wall beside my computer. It keeps me grounded and on track.

 

edit (sp).

[fabfoes87]

Yeah it really helps when you actually rember to look at it, and not dive in head first.

[joshbuys]

I like how there's less time for the cooler pair than there was before, and now you have to rebuild the damn thing.

A couple of us here thought the same thing, but then we got looking at the labor ops and found it actually pays a little over 1 Hr more on the new tsb. They just seperated the labor op for flushing the cooling system and changing the oil.

 

081103A 2004-2007 Super Duty, 2004-2005 Excursion 6.0L: Includes Time To Install Pressure Tester In-line

with Degas Bottle and Pressurize the Cooling System Several Times. Install Radkitplus on the Degas Tank to Test The EGR Cooler On Vehicle Twice, Replace the Degas Cap if Required, Sand Degas Bottle Fill Neck to Remove Small Nicks if Required. Install IDS/PVT, Road Test(s), Diagnosis of Fan Clutch, Check for DTC's, Reprogram PCM to the latest Calibration and Perform Turbo Boost Test (Do Not Use With 6642A, 8080A, 8005D, 9456A, 8616A, 12342D1, 6051A, 6005F12, 6005F38) This Labor Operation May be Claimed With Operations B, C, D, E, F and G. 2.3 Hrs.

 

081103B 2003 Super Duty, 2003 Excursion 6.0L: Includes Time To Remove and Leak Check EGR Cooler off Engine, Test Oil Cooler Using Radkitplus, Replace EGR Cooler And/Or Oil Cooler if Required, Time to Flush and Fill CoolingSystem, Change Engine Oil and Filter (Do Not Use With 6642A, 8080A, 8005D, 9456A, 8616A, 12342D1, 6051A, 6005F12, 6005F38) May be Claimed With Operations A, C, D, E, F and G. 5.9 Hrs. 8.1 Hrs on old tsb

 

090803A 2003-2007 Super Duty, 2003-2005 Excursion 6.0L, 2004-2009 Econoline 6.0L: Includes Time To: Pressure Test The Cooling System Several Times; Test The EGR Cooler On Vehicle, Replace The Degas Cap If Required, Sand Degas Bottle Fill Neck To Remove Small Nicks If Required, Install IDS/PVT, Road Test(s) And Check For DTCs (May Be Claimed With Operations B, C, D, E, F, G and H) 1.3 Hrs.

 

090803B 2004-2007 Super Duty, 2004-2005 Excursion 6.0L: Includes Time To: Remove And Leak Check EGR Cooler Off Engine, Replace EGR Cooler And Oil Cooler If Required (May Be Claimed With Operations A, C, D, E, F, G And H) 6.1 Hrs.

090803F 2003-2007 Super Duty, 2003-2005 Excursion 6.0L: Includes Time To: Flush And Fill Cooling System, Change Engine Oil And Filter (May Be Claimed With Operations A, B, C, D, E, G And H) 2.1 Hrs. 9.5 Hrs on new tsb

[Aaron]

I believe the 8.1 hours on the old TSB was for Econolines, was it not?

[joshbuys]

I LISTED ALL THE CLAIMABLE OPERATIONS FROM BOTH TSB'S IN MY PREVIOUS POST.

 

DIAG ON THE OLD TSB IS 2.3 HRS(INCLUDES FLUSHING COOLING SYS. AND OIL CHANGE) AND 5.9 HRS TO DO THE COOLERS AND APPARANTLY I DID MY MATH WRONG BECAUSE THAT TOTALS 8.2 HRS ON THE OLD TSB.

 

DIAG ON THE NEW TSB IS 1.3 HRS (DOES NOT INCLUDE FLUSHING COOLING SYS. OR OIL CHANGE, 2.1 HRS TO FLUSH AND FILL COOLING SYS. AND CHANGE OIL, AND 6.1 HRS TO DO THE COOLERS. TOTAL 9.5 HRS PER NEW TSB.

[Mikill]

It actually comes up less for me. I was getting 11.0 hrs to do EGR cooler/oil coolers. Now I'm coming up with only 9.5 hrs.