Hybrids: What do you think?

[DwayneGorniak]

I just got back from the Hybrid classroom course. I went into the course being very skeptical of the product and not understanding allot about it.

 

But I have to say: I came out out of this course very impressed with the product. It is the first time in a long time that I have been this impressed with the product I am working on. The two best words that i can find to describe these Hybrids is "RELIABILITY" and "SIMPLICITY".

 

Before every one gets all critical about these Hybrids, I'll make a few points about them. The Hybrid vehicle isn't for everyone. Country folk who have to drive through shit terrain on a daily basis would never benefit from one of these. However, it is a great product for a lot of people in cities, big towns, or even just outside of cities who commute short distances. It is a no brainer as far as I am concerned for Taxi companies or in town couriers. If you had to drive five or fifteen miles everyday across a city like many Companies or commuters do this would cut their maintenance costs drastically. You could be sitting in a traffic jam going no where and not have the engine running and pumping money out the tail pipe for nothing.

 

The simplicity of these things is amazing. Yeah, we as techs are going to see some failures in parts. But that is what we do for a living. But I can tell you that I don't think we will see failures on a regular basis. Yes the Battery packs are expensive. But that is why they have a great warranty. And I can't see why we wouldn't have aftermarket battery exchange programs in the next ten years from companies like NAPA who already have battery exchange programs. The Fusion was definitely thought out a little more than the Escape being that every module is serviceable without the battery pack. But Ford learned with the Escape first and implemented their upgrades in a nice new package which became the Fusion Hybrid. Hopefully the Escape may get some nice upgrades in the future. Not that it is a bad unit. It is still a very nice unit.

 

As far as I am concerned, anyone who just putts around town and makes small trips for shopping and never really goes on cross country trips really should consider buying one of these especially if they are all worried about having a healthy clean environment for their grand children. Just my

[mchan68]

We've sold a lot here. Never in for any issues other than usual maintenance. I replaced a eCVT back about three or four years ago, and a main body harness just recently. But those are the only two "major repairs" that have crossed my path so far.

[Brad Clayton]

I drive my vehicles 'til they dont go nomore. For that reason I would not consider getting a hybrid esp. an Escape.

 

We had one come in on the hook the other day for a no start. It needed a starter motor. Well that's the traction motor....$7000.00 dollars later the "starter" motor was replaced and back on the road.

[Jim Warman]

Life is all about trade offs..... we give up <this> so that we can have <that>...

 

Fuel consumption is a good example... we burn more fuel to reduce tailpipe emissions... it doesn't sound "right" but the facts and measurements speak for themselves... Producing the batteries for a hybrid can be "dirty"... but the consensus from the powers that be is that the benefits outweigh the detriments...

 

Trade offs.... welcome to the 21st century...

 

Back in 1986, I "saved" Alberta Government Telephones a shitload of money bt deleting the catalytic converter on one of their trucks... I had never been in that much shit before. I was to replace the unit - not delete it... And this is what we now call "a GOOD corporate citizen".

 

Emissions controls are a necessary evil... many of them don't work well... many of them require a lot of periodic attention... The truck would be more dependable without them... the truck wuld get wonderful fuel mileage without them.... but it's not about the truck... it is about US....

 

Emissions control devices are a trade off... if we defeat them to save money, gas, fuel, whatever... we run the risk of being hypocritical.

So often.... too often.... we are given the opportunity to say "that guy is a crook/hypocrit/charlatan/waste of oxygen".... we need to be sure that we don't offer the chance for turn-about.

[mchan68]

Are you in one of your usual philosophical moods again Jim?

[Jim Warman]

Actually no.....I have some bad shit going on and I'm taking it out on the wrong people....

[Mekanik]

I work on hybrids too, and have only done minor 'repairs'. I'm curious to see how much better fuel economy these things will get in 10-15 years.

[G. Bedford]

When the hybrid was first offered my manager came out and said he was sending me to class. I declined. I was always first to go to any class so it took them off guard. I have no problem with the technology as a tech. Neat stuff. As a one man business, a flat rate tech, I think it's a loser.

 

There is little maintenance to do and the powertrain in the Escape/Mariner has been very reliable in our area. The main hybrid components have generous extended warranty coverages and ,frankly, I have enough warranty on my plate with my diesel certs.

 

The tech that did get hybrid certified has found the non-certified techs can do the gravy and the warranty comes to him. Add the fact other dealers that haven't a certified tech send their used vehicles here for warranty repairs has added to his angst. The few instances he has done major repairs, each time to the braking system, the shop has had to cover his lost time.

 

I am happy with my decision.

[DwayneGorniak]

I can understand that decision. We seem to stumble across the topic of highly trained technicians losing out financially to all the gravy train experts quite allot. It's like we strive to become the best and then get a kick in the nuts financially for it. But I better not highjack the thread too much and keep it all about hybrids.

[Jim Warman]

Don't forget this car (not to mention Chevys full size hybrid pick up).

 

As for techs... they come in four flavours - better than adequate, adequate, inadequate and fucking scarey.

 

Techs that are better than adequate aren't real plentiful... but they excell at logic and diagnostic skills. They possess higher than average skillsets for the career they have chosen. Since they are smarter (not sure if that is the correct word) than your average bear, they are called upon to work on the more difficult, more high tech stuff.

 

Adequate techs aren't much better off because they would like to be better but usually wind up "in over their heads". Inadequate and fucking scarey techs have the world by the short and curlies... As underachievers, the powers that be can readily see that giving them a task that requires thought is a waste of time and effort...

 

Back to hybrids... they create a world of problems for our emergency services....

[G. Bedford]

We have been getting more and more sick-o owners in that are now out of warranty coverage. These guys have never realized the true costs of repairs since the most they ever paid out of pocket was a hundred dollar deductible(and no deduct on '07 and newer). Whether it was an injector, a EGR cooler or a long block it was nothing to them but some down time. The glazed over eyes and stunned look when they are handed the estimate is something to behold. The big jobs usually result in them muttering they "will just trade the POS off" as they head up front to sales. Pretty soon they are back, after finding out that no one else wants an out of warranty sick-o either. Especially, one that is exhibiting the classic pattern failures. People just don't have a spare 10 grand laying around for an engine nowadays.

 

So what does this have to do with hybrids, you ask. From day one the cost of the HV battery is hanging over your head. The 8 year/100,000 mile(10/150K Cali.) coverage will expire. The HV battery was $7,500 for the part alone, last I checked. Diagnosis and labor extra. So will the hybrid owner end up like the sick-o owners? An old, high mileage Escape Hybrid that has depreciated in value to the point that it is simply not worth the repair cost? Will any knowledgable buyer of an older hybrid not take into consideration the possible cost/risk they are taking on and adjust their offer to compensate? Time will tell, I guess.

[DwayneGorniak]

I definitely agree with you on this. I guess If I were a taxi cab owner, I would just lease a hybrid and let the fucker go back when the lease is up. That way it's always a write off and you're never stuck with the huge retail headache. It's funny you mention this, because I always new the day was coming for these poor diesel customers that they would have to cough up these huge expenses. Allot of them were so blind. And as you've said, it's almost catastrophic on them financially. Now that you mention it about the hybrids that way, I definitely see where you're coming from. But at least these Hybrids are more reliable than the diesels we've had lately.

[mchan68]

But at least these Hybrids are more reliable than the diesels we've had lately.

And THAT is something I definitely agree with.

[Jim Warman]

"Back in the day".... we would often opine that we were heading towards the "disposable car".....

 

Hmmmmmmm...

[cbriggs]

Yeah, but who can afford a 30 - 40 000 dissposable car or a 50 - 70 000 dissposable truck.

 

Quote:

I always new the day was coming for these poor diesel customers that they would have to cough up these huge expenses. Allot of them were so blind.

 

I'm seeing this too Dwayne, feel bad for the guys sometimes, but what can we do? other than get it back running. I forsee swapping in alot of used engines. We just found an 07 with 60k for around 5000 from a good wrecker, let alone the shady ones. Thats close to the price of a head gasket cooler job. Customers will probably see better value in hanging an engine with less than half the kms for similar price.