Mekanik Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Is there a trick to hooking up a fuel pressure guage to the fuel test port at the filter housing on top of the enging? (05 E450 6.0L) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 Forget checking it at the secondary filter, you'll probably have to take off a bunch of stuff for access. I suggest checking it at the rear of each head. You can make up some fittings, or this is copied from my book: Option 1: Purchase: OTC PN 7443 (quantity 1) Total: $53.41 Shipping: $8.36 Total: $61.77 tooldiscounter.com IH PN 1834731C1 Bolt $10.83 (quantity 1) IH PN 1828336C1 Washer $.60/ea (quantity 2) 2. Use a pick to remove the check valve from the banjo bolt 3. Adapt the fitting to your fuel gauge (1/8”NPT) 4. Bolt to the rear of cylinder head fuel passage Option 2: Purchase: IH PN 1837698C1 Tube $29.94 (quantity 1) IH PN 1834731C1 Bolt $10.83 (quantity 1) IH PN 1828336C1 Washer $.60/ea (quantity 2) 2. Use a pick to remove the check valve from the banjo bolt 3. Adapt the steel tube or hose to your fuel gauge (tube and hose are both ¼”) 4. Bolt to the rear of cylinder head fuel passage Option 3: Steal the front line from the secondary filter housing to the front of the head from a core motor (or an arch enemy's truck /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif ) Cut this off and put a hose and hose clamp on it to adapt to your guage. Pics: http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=133&cat=500 http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=132 Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Found some stuff: http://www.dieselmanor.com/dm_products/DM-DBBLT.asp http://www.dragspecialties.com/fatbook/3/62/3910201 Can you use the first one? Right thread & size? If not then most car speed shops should be able to point you in the direction of a shop that makes hoses for trucks/equipment. Aero-Quip makes ends too. For that matter what about a brake caliper hose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Found some stuff: http://www.dieselmanor.com/dm_products/DM-DBBLT.asp http://www.dragspecialties.com/fatbook/3/62/3910201 Can you use the first one? Right thread & size? If not then most car speed shops should be able to point you in the direction of a shop that makes hoses for trucks/equipment. Aero-Quip makes ends too. For that matter what about a brake caliper hose? If I told you I spent 1.5 days driving around to various Weatherhead and Parker hydraulics places, specialty metric fittings places, hydraulic shops, and parts stores to look in their parts catalogs and etc, just for 6.0 fuel pressure fittings, would you believe me? It's true. I did find a specialty shop that would make a 45 degree fitting for me- $42 each with a minimum order of 50. Brake hose banjos don't come that big for any vehicle in the catalog, I looked. Neither of what you have linked will work because it has to be a banjo setup. The exhaust pipes are too close for a regular adapter fitting- it's about 1-1.25" access, if I remember right. At the bottom of the page it does have some banjos listed that "could" work, but right now I don't remember the thread size and pitch. I do a lot of Evan classes for various fleets, so I really did put a ton of effort into this. I'm pretty sure it's 12mm, but a different thread pitch than the 12mm plug in the secondary filter housing where you check FP on an F-model. If I were to guess, I'd say the F-model adapter is 12x1.5 and the head thread is 12x1.25. Another strange thing for my aftermarket crowd- if you buy a regular 12mm adapter to check fuel pressure at the secondary FF, the outside dimension is too large. The Rotunda PN 303-765 has a relatively small OD to clear the fuel pressure regulator housing. The M12-1/4F8OHGS Parker fitting, which has the same thread on both ends as the 303-765, has a substantially larger OD and must be ground down and cranked in with a Channelocks. No standard manufacturer makes a fitting with the smaller OD. BTDTGTTS! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekanik Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Wow what a hassle just to verify fuel pressure. I think this thing just has a bad injector. I think I might just check the pressure right after the fuel pump. But I will need to figure something out so I can test it at the cylinder head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Bruce, I also spent many hours trying to get a fitting into the test port on an ambulance.... Finally gave up and went in line with the FCM and added "fudge factor" for the secondary filter (new). IIRC, the test port on the E-box points a different direction than on the F series... putting something on the inlet manifold directly in line with where the fitting wants to go.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Bruce, I also spent many hours trying to get a fitting into the test port on an ambulance.... Finally gave up and went in line with the FCM and added "fudge factor" for the secondary filter (new). I understand the reality of getting it done within a reasonable time frame, but this kind of scares me. What if there's a problem with a restriction in the standpipe check valve, or check valves going into the heads? (I've seen both) Your reading will tell you it's fine when there's a severe pressure drop at the heads. I always teach to check it at the heads so there's no doubt about delivery fuel pressure. It seems like every time I cut corners, I end up getting burned- maybe not on this truck, but on the next one. When I help guys on the phone with 7.3 low power, no code situations (after they've put a turbo on it) I always have them check fuel pressure at both heads. As I get on in years I wanna cover my ass more..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 This is an interesting topic, especially as it relates to a flat rate situation. But getting the truck diagnosis our job after all. I recall a thread over on TDS of some clown boasting that he and his engineer friend had put fuel gages on the rear of the cylinder heads on a Super Duty and went for a ride. The claim was if I recall that there was a 30 PSI drop at the heads because of the check valves being restrictive. I decried the claim and the likeliness of installing fittings at the rear of the heads easily as bunk. While not impossible, not easily done. In a van this is a different story. Anyone save any fuel lines from the LCF fuel line recall? I did and as soon as I remember to rig up the necessary compression fitting to work with my fuel gage I will have a working set up. Remembering to bring the line with me when I hit the hardware-mecca-mega chain store is another story. I will probably realize that I forgot to order a banjo bolt when I go to use it the first time too. Good info and pics Bruce. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbup.gif My adapter will end up looking similar to yours... great minds think alike. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Failing to think about the plugs at the back of the heads is truly embarassing..... I hate you, Bruce /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sick.gif Even more embarassing since I did have the doghouse off... did I mention I hate you, Bruce? And even worse since our mechanical fuel pressure test kit has a wide range of banjo bolt adapters that would probably have been the cats Meow.... Oh, yeah... I hate you, Bruce.... At the same time, the next time anyone has the heads off a 6.0, take a hard stare at the banjo bolts/check valves and the miniscule area that is present for the passage of fuel.... I have to believe that the engineers have considered BSFC and that these little GEMs are more than adequate for the task - in a stock engine. During the fuel crossover thread, I had a PM from one guy that was asking my opinion.... To my way of thinking, if there IS a restriction in the system, it will be these check valves. Adding a crossover isn't adding volume, per se.... but it is defeating part of the purpose of the valves. Now.... we know that Fords fuel pressure spec is 45 PSI. By and large, we rarely see anything over 42 PSI on a hard pull on the flat.... one in particular captured my imagination.... all the testing in the world, all the new parts they'd let me throw at it.. and several different gauges later.... 42 PSI (55ish in the bay). If the check valves are a restriction, would I see less than 42 if they were removed? I think we are about to embark on another learning experience - there is the chance that some of us (hi, guys) will have egg on our face.... But this is the first day of my vacation... and I have to go in to work /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif .... Oh, yeah... did I mention that I hate Bruce???? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 So um, Jim? When you are at work on your "Holiday" will be looking for an Econoline to connect a fuel gage to the cylinder head and tell us the results? This sounds like a fun thing to do, you know, the kind of work you should do when you are on Holiday. Since a serving of egg may be headed my way, do you recall whether it was a 30 PSI drop or fuel pressure would drop below 30 PSI? Either seems to me to be undesirable from an engineering standpoint considering the sensitive nature of these injectors. The best of the two scenarios would indicate a pressure drop of more than 15 PSI. I don't see the injectors using enough volume to cause a drop that large due to the check valves on a stock engine. I don't mind eggs. I don't like the taste of my own foot however. While I have not tested fuel pressure on a 6.0L at the heads, We commonly do it on a 7.3L and never see any significant loss on a truck where everything is working as it is supposed to. A couple of PSI? Hard to tell with the needle vibrating. Yes, I think we need to prove this out! Don't work too hard on your Holiday! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I have a house that desparately needs siding... and I can justify a new Li-Ion 18 volt drill this way... At the same time, I think we made it through "month end" so there should be no more warranty stories to "fix up".. One point for me... But a warranty inspector doesn't believe what I found in a 5R55... I'll have to come in for that one when he gets here....one point for "them". The sad part is that I will never pass up the chance to "play with my toys" and, if the opportunity arises (and it hasn't for too long) I'll be there. I'm going in today to finish putting tools away.... I decided I would lock the "tool crib" this time.... first time in 5 years - I hope I can find my keys. Maybe some of those deadbeats will buy/manufacture" their own delights for a change. This will also give me a chance to drive the new to me car that I am not allowed to drive (even if it is raining and I can't put the top down). And, I have to lube my hoist up for the two weeks of abuse it will surely see.... Something I don't understand.... as a tool necessary for my job and my SAFETY, I am anal about my hoist.... Other techs wont listen to me until after something "happens"... After all the times I mention that a truck is just a machine... I can't even get techs to look at a hoist as just another machine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 we rarely see anything over 42 PSI on a hard pull on the flat.... one in particular captured my imagination.... all the testing in the world, all the new parts they'd let me throw at it.. and several different gauges later.... 42 PSI (55ish in the bay). If the check valves are a restriction, would I see less than 42 if they were removed? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Jim i also have never seen a 6.0 new and old with anythingover 45psi. Is it just me, or is that the norm for these engines. I checked one at 300miles, 42psi. Checked on at 100,000 miles, 40psi, checked another one we got in with 250,000 on it, 43psi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 The question that bears asking.... and I relaize that there has to be a "cut off" point.... For fuel pressure - what makes 45 PSI "good" and 44 PSI "bad"... When we compare EOT to ECT... what makes 23F good and 26F bad.... How far are we expected or allowed to go when making judgement calls? The manuals are chock full of poor test procedures and specs... yet, if we follow the procedure to the letter and don't fix it, we might have a claim denied and if we don't follow the procedure (even though we fix it) we might have a claim denied... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 At the same time, the next time anyone has the heads off a 6.0, take a hard stare at the banjo bolts/check valves and the miniscule area that is present for the passage of fuel. Even funnier is the fact that the check valves don't do anything. You can blow through them both ways with your mouth, whether they're used or new...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I hate you, Bruce Did I mention I hate you, Bruce? Oh, yeah... I hate you, Bruce.... Oh, yeah... did I mention that I hate Bruce???? But this is the first day of my vacation... and I have to go in to work /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif .... Oh, yeah... did I mention that I hate Bruce???? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif This is hilarious! I already make jokes in class about going to Hell, and finding out that Satan himself drives a 6.0 E-van. I can't think of anything I'd rather do on vacation that go into the shop and work on an Friggin 6.0 E-VAN!!! ROFLMAO!!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 This is getting strange! Jim's post count as of right now is 666 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flamethrower.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 This is getting strange! Jim's post count as of right now is 666 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/flamethrower.gif I noticed that! Did you note that his member number is 66? I'm not sure about this guy- I'm glad he's a long way away! (fingers in a cross to ward off devils) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 We had an early build a long, long time ago that had a strange "flutter" kinda off idle.... I wasn't working on it so I'm unsure of all the details... turns out that repalcing the check valves was the eventual "cure"... Here is post 667 so everyone can breathe a sigh of relief... I was informed that we got an e-mail and an ESP inspector is NOT coming to view this trans... However.... they have requested date stamped photos of many, many things (IIRC, about 30 lines). These include pertinent things like a photo of the trucks licence plate.... a photo of the VIN decal.... a photo of the odometer.... a photo of the transmission tunnel.... a photo of the left exhaust manifold as close to the passenger compartment as possible.... a photo of the failed parts (this will be good since the rear over-running clutch doesn't <look> broken... it only acts like it...). The freakin' thing needs a transmission - give me a break... So... my first day of vacation is nearly done... I am about to go outside and hook up my holiday trailer - you guys will love this - IN THE RAIN /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif I will drive the 15 minutes to the lake and set up camp - IN THE RAIN... and then I will get pleasantly snoggered /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif L8r.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Not to worry Bruce, It looks like Mr. Seagram's will keep him sedated for a while. I am going to hang here with Jose Cuervo and wait it out! As for the 6.0L vans, for now I will thank my lucky stars they are rare in my shop though my neighbor's 2006 E350 6.0L is currently parked about 40' from my office wall. I can hear it beating, beating, louder and louder... ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/surprise.gif I hold my shot glass high to ya. Salud! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Jim, on oil coolers hotline told the other tech "20degrees difference.....ya right more like 10 " so ive been going off that. Im glad that this post just came up because ive been trying to get my "doo-dad" adapter to test fuel pressure on a 6.0 evan, and i totally overlooked the back of the head. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rockon.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Has anyone seen the Compucheck fittings that Cummins uses? They come in a variety of sizes, in standard and metric. This may be a good option for coming up with the fittings you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Tony, we are at the point where we question any "significant" difference in temps.... Sidebar.... I replaced the radiator on an 06ish F150 in the last week or so.... USA stock and the DP needed the truck out sooner.... I "stole" the rad out of an 07 new unit.... Since the rad was new and the truck was new, I could assume that the coolant was new so - the coolant I captured form the donor truck went into the repaired truck... And it plugged the screen in my coolant funnel - several times. This can't be right - until I remembered that the factory puts stop leak in cooling systems.... Could this be where some of our oil cooler restriction concerns are originating? Bruce... think of this... Satan himself could be a fat old redhead that rides a Harley!!!!! Bwahahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Well, I have a surplus of banjo fittings from Cummins/Dodges (don't ask why I have them, it is an evil satanic aftermarket modification). The hose size is 5/16"(8mm in Canada, eh), banjo bolt is 12mm and the thread pitch IIRC is 1.50. They look like this, although the length of the pipes may differ and some of the bolts have the schrader valve test ports. I'm willing to send one to anybody that gives me a mailing address (no salesman will call). If someone knows that the bolt will not work please say so, I can send just the fitting. If I run out it is only a matter of time till I get more. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Looks good Steve but I wonder about adapting that to a gage set up and clearance issues. Bruce posted some pictures of his adapters on PhotoPost... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 I was thinking that with a piece of heavy duty hose and a brass 5/16 barbed to 1/8 FPT you would have the tool in Bruce's pic. Did I miss something in his pictures? I use Fluke pressure transducers with quick couplers like in Bruce's photo. Are you guys using mechanical or electronic gauges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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