Jim Warman Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 and pour a stiff one... this is going to be fun.... Front desk.... one SA has been with us about 4 or 5 months... She is "unique".... The other SA, a month or so.... steady, but unspectacular. SM has management skills..... Nobody has any real experience in automotive trades.... The shop.... My two experienced journeymen... One very good apprentice... and four ummmmmmmmm - people. Some background... we lost some people... both good and mediocre, over the last while.... Good or bad... one very important thing we lost was "experience".... The reasons they left are varied... We are very busy and the pace can place stress on people not willing to accept it... Other industries became attractive... don't matter anyway... Anyway... the people up front are somewhat cowed.... They see someone with a pair of coveralls on.... That must mean he is a "tech"... And we can ask for his advise.... Let's digress for a moment... While it is important for us to know those things we know.... it is more important for us to realize the limits of our knowledge... and act accordingly. Anyway... I've eavesdropped on a couple of these exchanges - ones that I saw unfolding.... and I see these youngsters being very bold... stating things that they are unsure of as fact. I will say "Let me look into it..." if I have any doubt at all.... So... we have a green SA and a green tech.... and trouble brewing. But, the shop foredink can put out the fire... Some excerpts from the life of that shop foredink.... I was called in to work today.... installing the IC in an 06 Explorer turned into a PMI gone bad... Nobody checked the WSM. After the IC is configured... it still needs to be "mated" to the PCM... A simple process as long as we take nothing for granted... Recently... one of these guys is doing nothing (something they love to do... a part of the "trend", Kieth) at the service desk. He wants to know if a block heater cord is covered under warranty. "Is that the cause of the concern?", sez I.... "I don't know... I want to see if it's covered, first". WTF is that? We all know this wont change the diag process nor the outcome.... A glance at the RO and the truck is 4 years old... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banghead.gif If we do a LOF and find a tire valve cap missing when checking pressures... why would we install one? Small potatoes? Not for my customer if another shop brings it to his attention.... While we're doing a LOF (that seems to take well over an hour... even though we "forgot" to check the diff level... we can leave the key on the entire time. That way, when the customer comes to pick his truck up, we have to boost it if enough time was spent with the key on. "I don't see anything wrong, here....". "Where's your trouble light?". (are you ready?) "I don't need one".... "The nut was almost all the way tight and then it cross threaded itself"... I'll see two or three of these youngsters huddled in deep thought... this is a sure sign of impending doom.... We can safely assume that nobody has looked at the WSM.... we can safely assume that <something> went bad.... we can safely assume that someone tried "unbadding" it in a bid to hide it.... We can safely assume that I will be making more OT... Low on experienced people, we went through a period where jobs were handed out without due consideration for experience and skill sets. It's still happening as green SAs hand out jobs that they have little understanding of.... Green techs look at a pinion seal replacement as a no brainer.... Four bolts... one nut... wham, bam, thank you Ma'am.... "Bearing preload?" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Our guys get paid for WBTs. I've shown them all numerous times how to get to them. I've told them time and again to at least get the electrical ones under their belt.... For some reason, it is difficult to tell the difference between "no ohms" (<OL> on my DMM) and "no ohms" (0.1 or so). I had one guy (no longer here, thank Gawd) that was measuring the gap in ventilated rotors rather than measuring brake pad thickness. I wear reading glasses... matter of fact, years ago I broke my last pair of glasses that I wore all the time and never got around to replacing them. Why is it that I can see that leaking seal from halfway across the shop... and somebody can't see it from six inches away? Fuel filter clips... My fave.... "I can't get this" or "I can't figure it out".... "Did you do it the way I showed you?"... "Yes...". "No you didn't... it's still full of dirt" "Did you check the <whatever> fluid level?" "No, I didn't think it was part of a LOF". "I can't find the noise in the front end".... "Did you drive it?".... "No".... Don't let not knowing what kind of noise you're looking for slow you down.... We have a very real tech shortage in western Canada.... and we are trying to fill the gap with inappropriate people. There are times that I feel like I am living in TDS... "How can I tell if <this> is bad?".... "Ummmmmm, by looking?" The overwhelming trend I am currently seeing.... I have to digress to a shop staff meeting from not too long ago... After the meeting, the DP took us all out for dinner. For some reason, conversation turned to high school.... I'm a grade 8 dropout so I didn't have much to say. Almost all of the youngsters at the table admitted that they only did enough to "get by". And they carry that over in to "real life"... expecting to learn all they need "on the job"..... Now. more than ever, we need to spend some of our personal time making ourselves better... We need to be analytical.... we need to apply logic... When I set out writing this, I had all manner of "amusing" anecdotes in my mind.... most of these evaporated in the process. Some are mundane... like balancing a wheel with mud caked on the inside, not using a scan tool, searching for a TSB without running OASIS with concern codes, trying to make our symptoms match a TSB so we can avoid "real" diagnosis.... Fuses... another of my faves.... Yes... he checked all the fuses. The ones that were there, at least... But we don't know if any are missing because the wiring diagrams are too hard to read... We can install a brake rotor on the front of an Escape with a big gob of mud in the way.... Let's not let a wobble that will about jerk the wheel out of our hands stop us from releasing this car to the customer... A diff noise on a Crown Vic.... The lock bolt for the spider pin fell out and the pin was hitting the pinion... Nothing obvious for damage... let's put a new pin and lock bolt and re-assess the concern.... Unfortunately, the re-assessment consisted of backing the car out of the stall and parking it. After the customer brought it back and the diff was disassembled, a small but telling chip was found in the pinion. A simple road test would have told us that our repair was inadequate and, instead of a couple of hundred... the customer was going to spend much more... But it was the customer that had to bring it to our attention... I could understand it if it was the real stinkers that tripped us up.... but it is the simple things that hang us out to dry.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif isn't an answer.... FWIW... I have to go back to the shop in the morning.... even though I was called in today for a "no brainer".... whoops.... it must have been a toughie because I had to look in the manual.... I often comment on "inadequate" techs.... now I'm living it.... But there is an "upside".... I have a reason for drinking /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif The jury is still out on my new SM.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Well Jim, now you have an opportunity to mold some young technicians out of them and enlighten them with the very wisdom you have shared with us over the years. That is, if they are willing and capable. It is your responsibility as a foremen to make that assessment and report such findings to the manager who is ultimately responsible to the shop and its performance. Take notes if you have to, I have. It may take months to give an individual time to come around and show progress, or, to show why they may need to be replaced. Are you not used to teaching your technicians when required? Myself and our other team leader/foreman spend as much time instructing as we do putting out fires. In reality though, I know when a tech is standing in a puddle of gasoline with a book of matched in his hand and prevent fires before they ignite. Usually. Sometimes they "hide things" from me. Low on experienced people, we went through a period where jobs were handed out without due consideration for experience and skill sets. It's still happening as green SAs hand out jobs that they have little understanding of.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cover.gif Do you mean to tell me that YOU do not dispatch work or there is no reasonably qualified dispatcher? No wonder you are having problems. At the very least your service advisors should consult with you on dispatching if there is any question as to whether the technician is qualified or capable of performing the job. Just a suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 Kieth... I liken it to putting together a sympho\ny orchestra.... with a plumber, a baseball player and a guy that saw a picture of a violin once... Some of these people are the greenest of the green... and we have such a labour pool shortage in western Canada right now that these are the only people we can get!!! I can piss and moan about it... but there is no way on Gods green earth that we can make things any better.... Not until more talented people move in to our region. I spend a great deal of my time teaching... too much of it, in fact. I love helping my guys hone their skills... because it also allows me to improve mine. But it's a lot like being a university professor teaching grade one sandbox as I show my young gaggle how to torque wheel nuts and perform the simplest of tasks. I can't say if it's the luck of the draw or if the educational system has let these youngsters down... The ability to think for ones self and apply problem solving skills appears to be dead and buried... lost in a sea of "I can't do this"s and "I can't figure this out"s. And this is where we start to see some real problems with retention... Yes, these poor young shmucks are faced with information overload... not one of them was a "gearhead" in his teen years... but even repetitive tasks are lost on some of these youngsters... Over the last year or so, we lost some really talented people to the oil patch... we've had some that had talent that we could build on come... but they proved undependable (you never knew from one day to the next if they would show up for work). As the labour pool shrank... so did the quality of new hires. Recently, our newest SA has started coming to me when she's booking appointments to ask who would be the best choice for a particular job... This is a good thing.... if it worked as planned. (FWIW, the SA with "some" experience is one of those "don't know what I don't know" types). When push comes to shove - <this> job is here - <that> tech is waiting for work... and the system falls apart. With our workload and the scarcity of good staff... it is all we can do to hold on to the tigers tail, some days. As far as me dispatching work... the way it is is the lesser of two evils. The last thing I need is one of my flat rate guys pissed at me for getting two or three stinkers in a row. These guys are on my side I would prefer to keep them there... Don't get me wrong... like I said, I like teaching..... no - let's make that I LOVE teaching. Being able to pass on what knowledge I possess has allowed me to learn more and improve on my skills and techniques... making me that little bit better again... As it stands... having the opportunity to use your band width for my own private rant has lifted a great burden from my shoulders... Where else could I go to say these things without repercussion? I'm a sick enough individual that, even though some of the anitcs these guys can get up to are in the "Hi... I'm a idiot" category - I can still see humour in them. It's like slapstick comedy, at times.... until that ugly word pops up... "profitability".. and we all have to remember that. This past while has really driven home the realization that we really do need to attract more and better people to this trade. But the modern work ethic (or lack of it) has our youth doing "just enough to get by".... I'm just an obnoxious old curmudgeon that would love to have the rose garden I was never promised.. Thanks for the opportunity to get this crap off my chest, Kieth... now I have to go to work (yes... on Sunday) and look at a recent FQR that died on the highway. We have a big pipeline outfit camped just out of town.... they'll be here for three months and I'm looking to increase our already stupendous work load.... Like an old friend once told me.... "Cheer up, Jimmy.... things are never so bad that they can't get worse....". /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Cheer up, Jimmy.... things are never so bad that they can't get worse. And don't worry about my bandwidth, we have P-L-E-N-T-Y for the using. I just wish more of our silent members would start using some of it. There is much to be learned and shared by everyone. I'll say this Jim, I think I am pulling out of some really tough times. As it is you cant begin to imagine how jazzed up I am to be getting some new help and an apprentice just out of trade school. Yeah, I know, I might have to slap him around and straighten him out on some of the crap the tech schools are feeding these kids these days. I am approaching this as a challenge and expecting it to be difficult.... that way I will be pleased when the guy proves to be capable of thinking and, well, you know. I need to be optimistic. Perhaps they will become DTS members too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted January 6, 2008 Share Posted January 6, 2008 Okay guy's(Jim and Keith) which one of you is Curly and which is Moe, you already know that I'm Larry. Slapstick here we come!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 I am told that on Jan 12ish, my Mexican should be here... Yep... boss hired a tech from the land of maniana... Right now, I'll be happy if he can chew gum and walk at the same time... I mentioned my Mexican on TDS and brought up that giant sucking sound as jobs disappeared across the border.... no takers... not one. Anyway, maybe he'll understand some of these shoddy wiring harnesses we see.... Larry... I'm the "good looking one" /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Don't forget to bring the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif Slapstick you want? Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 oops... I forgot one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/rofl.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8ranger Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Well Jim, habla espaniol? Good luck with your new man. We have a good customer who owns a mine in Mexico, I regularly get phone calls from him when his truck breaks down. It seems that wherever it happens or whatever happens they would want to replace the engine? Even one time they told him that the engine and transmission had to be replaced as a unit. After talking to him we sent 2 7.3l valve cover gaskets and under cover harnesses and voila he's back on the road. By the way the shops were around Zacatacas, hopefully your guys not from there. I took a chance to visit a Ford dealership while in Playa Del Carmen last year, around 2 in the afternoon, found guys sleeping under trucks, siesta you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Do they have Taco parlors and Shooter bars in the Showrooms? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I think that would be a great Idea for dealerships up here. I don't think anyone would be able to stand the smell or want to around me much if we had one of those though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 I took a chance to visit a Ford dealership while in Playa Del Carmen last year, around 2 in the afternoon, found guys sleeping under trucks, siesta you know. Funny thing about that, many cultures have mid-day breaks. It seems there is something about the human clock that has many of us feeling drained around that time. A little siesta would do me good on any given day. I sometimes find myself nodding off if I am sitting with nothing to keep my attention. Seriously! Of course going to bed at midnight doesn't help either. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/sleep.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLR95 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Wow after reading this it has me wondering if I am worthy enough to be in this business. I don't have all the experience in the world actually only about a year in the shop but man I am wondering what you guys would think of me if Im in the high Im an idiot category? I don't think I am but if I worked under Jim or Keith I am beginning to wonder. I was an apprentice the first time but I apprenticed under the wrong guy in the shop. Hes one of those that loves havin his masters certifications but doesn't wanna do anything but diag the vehicle and when it he looks at it it will fix itself. And don't even get me started with the SM its crazyness.. there ya go keith heres a young member feeling dumb haha but yet starting to see the light /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/notworthy.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Thats cool Chris, but I hope you don't think I look down on people. I understand that not everyone has the same abilities, training or experience. It's Mr. HoorayForMe or Mr. Lazy that kill me. This can be a difficult job when it comes to the technical aspects, its the simple common sense stuff that some guys seem to not give a shit about... and it snowballs from there. So if you feel like you are "starting to see the light" then it sounds like you have already figured it out and know what you gotta do. If you know to check OASIS, consult the vast amount of information that is easily available to you and you think about what you are doing then you are already leaps and bounds ahead of many guys in the field. But don't be afraid to ask questions in fear of being thought stupid. Proud to have ya aboard! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 Hey, Chris... Don't get me wrong... I dedicate myself to making these guys the best techs they can ever be.... make that "the very best techs they will apply themselves to be"... You have seen how very difficult it can be in this business.... Yet too many (a lot of them appear to work at my store) figure that all we do is open the hood, unbolt some parts and bolt some new ones in... No diag necessary.... We have coveralls and tools and that's all that's needed... A long time ago, it was explained to me... "I you plan on fixing it, you have to know how it works". That's one part of the "secret". Time will bring experience.... manuals and training will bring you knowledge.... and some obnoxious old curmudgeon in Canada will be there with the rest of the DTS denizens to help where we can... I think you're gonna do just fine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron_Johnson Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Some of these people are the greenest of the green... and we have such a labour pool shortage in western Canada right now that these are the only people we can get!!! I can piss and moan about it... but there is no way on Gods green earth that we can make things any better.... Not until more talented people move in to our region. This past while has really driven home the realization that we really do need to attract more and better people to this trade. But the modern work ethic (or lack of it) has our youth doing "just enough to get by".... Oh Jim...(I suspose I should stop calling you Grampa Jim...focus boy got me onto that). Not all of us youth do just enough to get by. I work a 70+ hr work week every week. I keep at my training and always try and learn from whatever I am doing and from whoever I am around. I will say that 85% of the apprentices and young journeymen in Alberta do fit your description. Out here the people don't need the jobs, the jobs need the people. Have you tried running some ads in other parts of the country? Maybe offering some sign on or relocation bonus? Maybe set up a rotation so they can fly back home every few weeks. Thinking outside the box may help attract some qualified techs to your shop. And oh yea, It can get worse.....Try coming up here to Ft McMonney....this town is full of people like that. 1/2 of them couldn't run a good bath. You can't teach common sense, I realize that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 Sorry for Highjackin again, But Aaran you should update your profile. I was wonderin where the hell you went to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 7, 2008 Author Share Posted January 7, 2008 He fell to the lure of the oil sands.... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Aaron.. I know there are good young'uns out there.... Mercifully, I have one... By necessity, this young fellow is working at a level far above his apprenticeship standing.... He learns.. he retains and builds on his experience.. But it's not just crappy youngsters... there are a LOT of older techs that don't give a damn about their careers, too.... Lord knows we've had a few of them, too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLR95 Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I know you guys were tryin to drag me down and I understand that and sorry if it made it look like that was the case. I wish I worked with guys like you that are willing to teach and answer questions good bad or otherwise. I have a tendancy to ask alot of questions because I like to know how things work and try to gain knowledge from that. Right now I am havin a serious gut check because I went from one of those gravy jobs building the trucks in the factory makin decent money and decieded I didn't want to be stuck there for the rest of my life to now having to maybe pull an engine a second time to fix an oil leak for the second time so right now I am down in the dumps just trying to get out some way some how on a positive note with all of it /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/shrug.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Chris, we all learn somehow. At least you are learning. That's more than I can I say for some folks I have worked with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 Chris... even when you get older (old enough to be a curmudgeon, even), the learning curve can come around and smack you upside the ear... hard... We take these little setbacks in stride... sh!t happens. Take a little extra time with your oil leak.... one of two things has happened... either you made a misdiagnosis.... or something went wrong with the part(s) you installed. These things can happen to any of us.... how we handle the adversity is what makes the difference between "us" and "them". Whichever way the cookie crumbles... it as an opportunity to learn... to become better... to become a little more than you were... Opportunities are something we should sieze. Good judgement comes from experience.... unfortunately, experience comes from bad judgement. Strength and perserverance help... I was young once (honest) - I had more than my share of troubles.... I learned and I grew and I honed my skills... But I'm not a great tech... somedays I even wonder if I'm a decent tech.... But, that next RO is a new RO and I can move on.. taking what I learn with me... licking my wounds when I get the chance. None of the guys here are great.... they keep an open mind when they are diagnosing... they understand what a particular test is looking for.... they think about what they are doing rather than just going through motions.... and they care about their final product and how they got there.... That is what separates these guys from "ordinary" techs... All you need to do is choose where you're going... and then go there... You'll be fine.... honest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron_Johnson Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 Lure of the oilsands...lol never quite heard it put that way before. Yeah I decieded to try it up here for a bit. I am working for a fleet that has 100+ Fords and all of them diesels. Needless to say I am kept busy. Lots of $$$$ to be made up here. Jim and Dwayne, do most of your fleets work in the patch? Jim is Andy still with you guys? I too am lucky to have a really good apprentice. He picks things up when you tell him the first time, and you can tell he has aptitude for the trade. It's not often you find guys that actually have the aptitude. Now if we could find 5 more like him...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 YOUNG GUYS!!!! Take note that once again as I quote myself /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/king.gif Quote: There are no stupid questions, just the ones you "assume" as correct, don't be shy ask them as many times as it takes to absorb the information, we may get a little cranky but that's what we do, DEAL WITH IT!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 I have a huge mix of clientel here. We are what I would call on the border of the oil patch versus Natural gas country. From here and North of me is major oil territory and south of me is major Natural gas territory. And being on a major "Queen Elizabeth 2" artery only fifteen minutes south of RedDeer gives me alot of Hotshot clientel and transient oil riggin clientel as well. We are also in major ranching/farming territory. Everyone south of me seems to work on all Natural gas/rancher clientel. Then I get alot of Finning Caterpiller and Toroment Energy service trucks out of Calgary and RedDeer. I am up to my freakin eybrows in diesels. And Thank God I too have a good young apprentice working with me. He has certainly picked up the extra responsibilty of handling what I can't handle or drink. And he's holding his own ground quite well. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif And he does well on diesels as well. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share Posted January 8, 2008 Yep... Andy is still with us... Sounds like his dad wants him to take over the backhoe business pretty bad, though... Andy is one of the conscientious, thinks about what he's doing guys... proud of his work... a few more like him would make life easier.... I hate to say it, but that young pup has made me learn a thing or two. I was a little worried coming back to a dealer... all that new technology stuff and all that.... This past 5 years has been a very rich experience for me. I went from the "new knob" to senior in about two years and made Master in just over the third year... What a ride!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 pull an engine a second time to fix an oil leak for the second time so right now I am down in the dumps just trying to get out some way some how on a positive note with all of it Been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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