H_Puryear Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 We finally have some direction and labor ops to boot. This article supersedes TSB 07-21-5 to update the Service Procedure. ISSUE: Some 2003-2007 F-Super Duty, 2003-2005 Excursion and 2004-2008 E-Series vehicles, all equipped with a 6.0L engine, may exhibit: Coolant venting from the degas bottle cap No-crank/no-start Coolant leak White smoke from tail pipe Low coolant Lacks power overheat No cabin heat The conditions typically occur when operating the vehicle under a load such as trailer towing, uphill driving, or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Mutter Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 thats alot of reading,you can't flat rate read this one or you will end up only getting 14.1 hours to do headgaskets,I like the flow chart, almost every way will have you replace the headgaskets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 Notice the part where it says the injectors can be damaged if they are left in the head during the detorque or torquing process? That's news to me. I've done MANY head gasket jobs, and never removed injectors during the process. I've never had any problems either. I'm curious to know whether you guys have been removing injectors to do these. Otherwise I think this is a MUCH better written TSB than its predecessor. This one actually has a logical process, and doesn't involve disassembling the vehicle twice. Now if only they upgraded the service parts to have ARP studs rather than bolts...perhaps in the next rewrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 3, 2008 Share Posted February 3, 2008 A lot of the things the manual and/or other documents has us do is because they can't find an engineer to sign off on doing it any other way... Looking at the SLT for HGs, it doesn't look like they've allowed the time for it.... I would hazard a guess that they "know" we aren't removing the injectors... if something were to go bad from the practice, they can charge us back on improper technique and the engineers are "safe". Some days you're the dog... and some days you're the hydrant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Well, after reading the "F U Ford" post on the Ford message board on Friday, I ran a copy of the TSB. Sat around this week-end going over the SLTS times and what is being required by Ford. The first glaring example is the head gasket time in the TSB pays .2 less than the SLTS. It also does not have an "add" for the .4 allowance for dual alts. The head gasket time for E-Series is .5 light, and also no allowance for dual alts. Ford labor times are like a Las Vegas casino, the odds always favor the house. Looking at the TSB time for the EGR/oil cooler operation, you will see it pays the same to replace the EGR cooler as the oil cooler. Now it takes a bit more time to replace an oil cooler than an EGR cooler in my experience. Especially time to clean around the oil cooler so as not to introduce debris into the reservoir. The testing for EGR cooler leakage is fine, but really, if you replace an oil cooler for failure, are you going to re-use the EGR cooler? It pressure tests fine today, but what about next week? How weakened and close to failure is it from the oil cooler being restricted? My reality, at the edge of the oil patch, differs from pure repair strategies developed in a test facility. I think those techs that have dealers that are tight on M-time will be improved by this TSB. They may finaly be paid for what they always had been doing, but the dealers fear of the numbers or audits, kept them from using M-time to reimburse the techs. Those techs that are at dealers that have used M-time to cover their competent, but slower, techs may find their people leave over it. Losing factory trained techs, to other fields or the aftermarket, will not help Ford or the FLM vehicle owners. This TSB may also run off the pencil whippers and time clockers that have been gaming the system. When they find the times are the times these cheaters may either step the cheating up in other areas until the dealer cannot bear it and takes action or not live with the pay cut and leave. Good riddance, either way. My own feeling from reading forums and talking to other dealer techs is that the labor time paid usually determines the repair more so than the published procedure. Ford has developed some interesting steps to isolate failed components, but in the end, will the: if eats coolant, replace the EGR cooler and oil cooler; if it pushes coolant do the head gaskets mantra, hold? For years techs have been told to not remove cabs, but the techs still did. The techs are told not to use anything but plastic scrapers to clean surfaces but have thumbed their noses at that, also. What Ford wants and what Ford gets will remain to be seen. I think every Ford diesel tech needs to take the time to go through this TSB and the SLTS and disect it as I did. This TSB will be heavily utilized, so understand it as deeply as possible. I have learned over the years to never play a game you do not understand the rules to. Empower yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Quote: The testing for EGR cooler leakage is fine, but really, if you replace an oil cooler for failure, are you going to re-use the EGR cooler? It pressure tests fine today, but what about next week? How weakened and close to failure is it from the oil cooler being restricted? My reality, at the edge of the oil patch, differs from pure repair strategies developed in a test facility. My question of the day...Could you possibly increase the pres. or vac. to cause the failure and head it off??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I can't speak for the US or even other stores in Canada... I've had a great deal of luck us terms like "suspect" (not as a verb). Most warranty repairs can be described in mono-syllabic terms... but there are times when it becomes most beneficial to extrude those larger than life words from the depths of our functional brain areas and blow the dust off them. Most claims that enter that "limbo" between accept and reject are given to me... a bit of polishing... throwing in a few $5 words were a 25 cent word should have worked.. and you're in like Flint. I think that the desk jockeys at nazi headquarters are too embarassed to admit that they can't understand what I wrote. As usual, I digress.... I think that taking the time to induce a failure in the EGR cooler would be both time consuming and dangerous for anyone attempting it... Saving grace... EGR coolers have a high incidence of failure. Ford, for the most part, hasn't been requesting their return for inspection. But I would suggest checking service history before we "suspect" ourselves into a problem.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Ok, can someone please explain to me the procedure on testing the oil cooler on vehicle with the RADKIT? I tried it and, maybe im overlooking, or not doing something right but, i cant get a vacuum on the cooler with no coolant in the cooler (blew it out with air). I'm not understanding how we are pulling vacuum on the rear oil cooler port with an open cooling system ( egr cooler replacement) Someone has to have gotten it to work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hempstead Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 What you are trying to do is determine if the oil cooler is restricted. if the radkit gauge needle moves that is an indication of a restriction and is to be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Bedford Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Easiest way to understand is to grab a new oil cooler from parts. Install the radikit as the picture shows on the one port with the other open to atmosphere. Now since it is not restricted you will see you have no resistance to your air flow and the gauge will not pull a vacuum. Now slowly cover the open hole with your thumb and notice as the opening becomes smaller the gauge begins to read an amount of vacuum. This mimics the passages becoming clogged. I had an oil cooler that had a 30 degree difference in temp. and it pulled 15-16" quickly. So, I think the test is valid. Remember though, any measurable vacuum is a fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Aha....i just realized that... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/icon_crazy.gif i wasnt even thinking of that. too much crappy molson last night /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/drinkingdude.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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