Keith Browning Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 U haven't seen a lot of axle work over the years and certainly not on anything recent. So when I had the rear carrier out of a 2012 F350 Dana 80 with Truetrack I was surprised that the WSM does not call for any friction modifier. I asked the fellas at the HotLine and they responded with "engineering has determined that with the use of 75W-140 synthetic oil it is not needed. Fair enough. Why did I have the carrier out? To replace the clutch packs for noise on turns. It wasn't the usual chatter either but rather an alarming scraping type sound. I saw no damage, burning or wear other than a few score marks. It is surprising how little friction material is actually on those plates. New clutches fixed it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 If the visual damage was that slight, it makes me wonder if an oil additive would have fixed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 The hotline is off there rocker on a lot of new stuff. They have been drinking way too much of Ford's "Kool Aid". I would run friction modifier in a clutched limited slip and if it's a big unit such as a 10.5" or Dana 80 then it gets two bottles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 If the visual damage was that slight, it makes me wonder if an oil additive would have fixed it? Well that is what I am wondering but I have never heard a noise like this before from a diff. It wasn't even a chatter, just a grinding so I didn't hesitate to take it out. I didn't expect to find what probably amounts to nothing. Would friction modifier have fixed it? We will never know. Was I going to put it back together with the original clutches and risk having to take it apart again for free? No sir! Originally Posted By: Brad Clayton The hotline is off there rocker on a lot of new stuff. They have been drinking way too much of Ford's "Kool Aid". I would run friction modifier in a clutched limited slip and if it's a big unit such as a 10.5" or Dana 80 then it gets two bottles. Not sure I agree. Are you making this dispute simply based on what we have become accustomed to doing? If engineering feels that the quality of the lubricant combined with the friction material in the clutches is good to go then I trust that was probably their intention to begin with. After all it was designed that way. Note this is a DANA rear axle. I am not sure who would specify the lubricant, Ford or Dana but I would wager Dana has to make that decision. But let's say I had dumped in a bottle or two of the smelly stuff. Beyond removing the noise, is it possible to cause the clutches to behave differently than intended? Create new symptoms or damage? Ever see somebody mistakenly put 5W20 in a transmission? It will work, but not work for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Quote: Are you making this dispute simply based on what we have become accustomed to doing? I say that because I have seen them tell me one thing and then next week tell me another when the vehicle was not redesigned in that amount of time. In my eyes, some of their decisions are cost driven and not what is necessarily good for the longevity of the vehicle and customer retention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Looking at the shop manual procedures, 2007 was the last year model which mentions using friction modifier, although it doesn't mention one word about 75w-140. It also states to soak the friction elements in friction modifier before installing them. So I guess the '08 up don't need XL-3 but I would still wet the clutches with the correct gear oil before installing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Well, I just checked the 2012 Mustang and it calls for friction modifier with you guessed it 75w-140. I guess the hotline's oil being better idea is questionable. Maybe the clutch material in the Super-Duty's are different which would delete the modifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Maybe the clutch material in the Super-Duty's are different which would delete the modifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 In late model F150, we have done a lot of clutch replacements. How to pretreat the clutches was in a real state of flux for a while - at one point, they asked us to soak the frictions in skunk oil for (caution - memory thing) 24 hours... if I am wrong, the time span was still more than the time available in a day..... We sell a lot of trucks with ELDs (electronic locking differentials) making skunk oil a thing of the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 Oh, and on that note Jim, these clutches came in the package pre-lubed. With what I can't tell you but it wasn't skunky at all though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Well that takes care of any 24 hour dealies. On a side note todays stuff doesn't hold a candle to the friction modifier from the 80's. That shit could make you puke. We used to hide rags soaked in it under guys tool boxes for a few laughs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 That shit could make you puke. We used to hide rags soaked in it under guys tool boxes for a few laughs. Brake rotor shavings in battery avid was pretty rank as well... but who has battery acid around anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YukonTyler Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I've done a lot of diffs lately it seems (after coming over from Subaru and never touching them). Last one was clutch packs in an '09 1/2 ton with the small diff. Printed WSM instructions came in the kit and order du jour was 15 minutes in fric mod prior to install and then pitch it. When I fill it I put in a fresh tube. Same story for the 1 ton I did the week prior. If the frictions are being soaked in the stuff prior to install then I can't see it being harmful to have it slosh around in there. Cheap insurance in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbl35 Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 That sticky stuff we were shooting into the explorer and aviator trannies was real nasty stuff, yoy don't want to let it touch your skin. Guys were getting bad rashes from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmantech Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 We do many 150's for shudder concern. We had many return with the same shudder, shimm selection was correct, soaked 15 min.(our dealership owner requires we only use 80w-90) Hotline stated the had no records of repeat failures on diff. clutch packs! (They said if you drive in a circle then goes away that you have no issue) Tell that to a guy who just spent big $ on a new truck. Well anyway we started to dump 2 bottles and I have not had one back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Quote: (our dealership owner requires we only use 80w-90) I am glad I don't work at your place. My superiors would have a hard time convincing me to put the wrong fluid in a vehicle for what ever their reasons may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 My superiors would have a hard time convincing me to put the wrong fluid in a vehicle for what ever their reasons may be. I fight this battle in almost every class I teach. Nearly every DOT or gov't agency uses some kind of "one tank system", whether it's one coolant for all vehicles (UGH!), one oil for all vehicles (UGH!), the cheapest bid aftermarket filter (UGH!), one ATF with an additive for all vehicles (UGH!), or "reman" air filters (Yes, reman air filters that have been cleaned and returned to them). One dept recently told me horror stories about a centrifugal oil filter that replaced all spin on oil filters in their fleet. After replacing MANY engines at huge dollars they found the filters weren't doing the job. (Duh!) Several of the engines were big Cats in off road equipment costing 20-30K. I'm an OE parts nut, teaching this strongly in class across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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