gasgasman Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 Anyone having issues with customers running bio diesel? I've seen high fuel pump and injector failure rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Oh no you haven't.... the guys on DTS tell me that biodiesel is good stuff. It must be Fords problem cause it sure can't come from my K&N filter, my stacked chips and my abortive attempt at the "10K mod" they do on the 7.3... Oh, yeah... Blackstone says my oil is still good even after 100,000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 At this point I suspect that Bio Diesel is still a local or regional phenomenon because I haven't seen it here in Jersey. Nobody has asked about it either. I am glad that this topic has finally been raised because I would like to know more about it. I hear it burns much cleaner and quieter but I would still be concerned with the lubricity quality and impurities that could be introduced by questionable manufacturing methods. I know Ford recommends limiting it's use to 5% but there are owners using 50% and 100% with "supposedly" no problems. I hear it smells different too! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif If they can add butter flavor to it, the world might smell like a giant bowl of pop corn if it becomes widely used. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/popcorn.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 I'm not totally sure but... I know what a bottle of Crisco oil and what a bottle of olive oil look like when my groceries spend too much time outside in the winter. Personally, I like the idea of bio-diesel. Like other fuel alternatives, I'd prefer that manufacturers address the fuel directly rather than have some of the off-centre crap we hear happening with regards to warranty and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted December 27, 2005 Share Posted December 27, 2005 Like other fuel alternatives, I'd prefer that manufacturers address the fuel directly rather than have some of the off-centre crap we hear happening with regards to warranty and such. I don't get your point here. Do you mean that if there is a will there is a way? We know it works in these trucks but Ford tells us no! No more than 5%. Why? Have there been any studies on this? I would love to know exactly what the effects of bio diesel use has on these engines. And I agree with you, I like the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasman Posted December 27, 2005 Author Share Posted December 27, 2005 The "problem" is the guys making the bio diesel themselves.You know the moonshine mix is not 5%. There was an episode of 'Trucks' where they showed you how to make bio diesel. Bio diesel has really dark shade of yellow and smells like turpentine. The Sick O injectors doesn't like to be run lean, which can happen with the bio diesel. Of course, it's Ford's fault and we warranty them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Doc... this stuff does pretty much the same as motor oil.... goes through a viscosity change. I don't imagine that there's a waxing concern like summer diesel but I sure can't see ths stuff doing well in our annual cold snap. It was last year or year before we "enjoyed" a week straight of -50.... We usually get a few days of -40, but...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 gasgasman....you're just echoing my thoughts... (remember, I just worked until midnight tonight and I still wont have this years work done when new year strikes so I might be a little "Knarky"...) I look at other forums and see the sheer number of people that want to violate any terms of use provisions outlined in the waranty provisions and, when they realize things are broken, it is the product and not the misuse that must be faulty. In many cases, it comes right down to fraud... FWIW, if these people threaten to buy "the other trucks".... all the other make techs I talk to are going through the same stuff we are and these customers will find things aren't any diiferent with another brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasman Posted December 29, 2005 Author Share Posted December 29, 2005 Society has been "conditioned" for years to complain whenever their vehicles are in for service. Back in the 80s, if a customer raised too much hell we would run them off. No more. Call the light company and complain about your bill being too high, either pay up or you'll have no lights. OK, I'm off the soap box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 Oh, you have brought back a memory.... my last shop.... the one that had me swear off of being self employed. It was Fox Creek, Alberta... At that time, our electric authority was Alberta Power. They had a small office with two field operators... I was their "fleet mechanic" of choice. They would often get into 90 days on their bill and even make it into 120 days. They refused to pay my late payment charge. However, if I was tardy in paying my electric bill, they would add their late payment charge. For a period of time, I allowed my payments to be as late as theirs... net result? They would cut my power if I didn't pay the late charges... If I insisted on them paying my late charges, they would go down the street to the other shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Fischer Posted January 2, 2006 Share Posted January 2, 2006 I have read alot about Bio and here is my question that no-one on any of the other boards seem to be able to answer. Bio Diesel has a lower flash point than diesel. Why wouldnt there be a concern for pre-det? How would you properly adjust timing to compensate for this? As I see, Bio Diesel has better lubricity than diesel, and burns cleaner. On the down side of this, in order to convert over to using it, you have to change filters several times because of the full fuel system cleansing it does. If you have an older truck, you have to replace the rubber fuel lines because it will break them down. I have also seen several post of people using this and have seen mixed reviews on MPH and horsepower. There is a station in West Point, VA that sells B-100 and there are several around that have B-20 and so on. I dont personally believe that I am going to try it myself. But if any of you have any in depth questions about it.. ask Willie Nelson. As I understand, he runs it in everything he has Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpatron Posted January 5, 2006 Share Posted January 5, 2006 The problem with the bio-diesel is supposed to be that is causes "STICKTION" (Ford's new word, add it to your spellchecker) in the spool valve since it only moves .017". As a comparison. I tried taking the o-rings off a VGT solenoid to simulate a stuck turbo concern, but the truck ran fine because of the tight tolerances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I'll take a stab at this one.. Its a relatively new product that were seeing used in a new product so the learning curve is all over the place... The issues we're seeing with Bio is related to the fatty acids in the oil that makes it into the fuel. The "cleaning" process that you hear about is allot more detrimental than you would think. It actually delaminates the tank, cloggs the filters and o-rings, plus causes the sticktion in the injectors... Before you tell me that the sticktion is on the oil side, I understand. Some blowby is normal, most folks running Bio are also running extended oil change intervals as well. The contaminates make it into the oil, causing it to thicken and cause injector failures. So to sum it up, Bio(more than B5) can cause low fuel pressure(killing injectors), contaminated/thickening oil(killing injectors) and can drasticly change drivability with weather change(more intermitant missfires)... I have heard the guys talk about running B100 with no issues.They also tell stories about 50hp increase from a K&N and 25MPG with a 150hp chip.. Sorry, I dont buy it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Well, it is obvious that Bio-diesel is something that is here to stay for sure. Ultimately this means that at some point in time, each and every one of us will have to deal with it and any effects it's use may be having on engines and fuel systems. This is another area that it would be prudent of the manufacturers to do some serious research and testing. In addition to that, develop some easy and inexpensive methods of testing and detecting the use of Bio-diesel in the field. Until "they" can develop fuel systems and engines that can tolerate the use of alternative fuels it seems like this is going to be a menace for a while. Now, isn't Bio-diesel used a lot in Europe? Are they having problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 I think since its in its infancy, we'll see allot of progress with Bio. I'm hopefull and would love to see more money staying in this country. The biggest issue we have is the injector operation, maybe with common rail, it will be less pronounced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Amacker Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I promote biodiesel heavily in my classes. Aside from the political ramifications, the lubricity added with the oils is very beneficial to the injector barrel and plungers. Even though Ford says B5 max, IH says B20 is OK as long as it doesn't hurt the fuel system. Many government agencies are required to run biodiesel year 'round. I have an IH school bus fleet with 2 million miles on biodiesel in Michigan. It's kind of hard to find unless you're in the corn belt, if you go to biodiesel.org there's a map showing locations around the nation, with most being centered around Kansas. There were some issues years ago with the components separating in the tank, but these are all gone. Biodiesel is a very good cleaner, if you run it in an old truck you might expect to change filters a couple of times in the first few months. Many owners claim a distinct improvement in the way their trucks run when biodiesel is in the tank. I wonder if their barrels and plungers are already galled and the bio is making things slide better. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGM Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I promote biodiesel heavily in my classes. Aside from the political ramifications, the lubricity added with the oils is very beneficial to the injector barrel and plungers. Even though Ford says B5 max, IH says B20 is OK as long as it doesn't hurt the fuel system. Many government agencies are required to run biodiesel year 'round. I have an IH school bus fleet with 2 million miles on biodiesel in Michigan. It's kind of hard to find unless you're in the corn belt, if you go to biodiesel.org there's a map showing locations around the nation, with most being centered around Kansas. There were some issues years ago with the components separating in the tank, but these are all gone. Biodiesel is a very good cleaner, if you run it in an old truck you might expect to change filters a couple of times in the first few months. Many owners claim a distinct improvement in the way their trucks run when biodiesel is in the tank. I wonder if their barrels and plungers are already galled and the bio is making things slide better. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Sorry Bruce, but I totally disagree.. First off, the barrel and plungers are just a small portion of the concern. The Navistar engineers I know, will simpley tell you B5 is max for the 6.0L, maybe you know different guys..The fuel is cleansing, but that is a portion of the concern with delamination. With proper maintenance, it may be ok, but most of the guys out there trying this stuff think if the use it like regular diesel and continue to negletct maint, it will be fine.. Not true. The crud that builds up in the oil after running Bio is what is really hurting the 6.0L injectors. Like I said, its promissing, we just cannot tell people that it is the way to go right yet. It is causing allot of concerns for Ford, that is a fact believe it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The engineers put limits on these sorts of things and usual err on the side of safety... since it is their bosses nickel, why wouldn't they? I find it very hard to recommend anything that the factory engineers wont back me up on. Well, I also find it foolhardy, but who is to judge? The 6.0 in Navistar trim is a far cry from the same motor in FMC trim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ggg Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 We have been running B10 in a fleet for the last 1.5 years. So far no major issues, but rubber parts were replaced prior to the switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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