Keith Browning Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Okay, I included this forum because we all know that customizing cars and trucks is just cool and those of us who can't resist the temptation for more power, just have to play. We know that modifications to any vehicle can void warranties, cause problems and make our jobs harder at times and it's a "given" that it's a hot topic on other web sites. Let's be honest though, where do we as professionals draw the line or look the other way? Do we draw common sense conclusions when faced with the topic or do we allow ourselves to be bullied by the truck buying public or the manufacturers? I personally think that cooler heads shall prevail. I certainly don't think we can or should avoid the topic(s) because it's our reality. When the aftermarket industry is exploding like it is and the auto shows promote customizing the way they do (seemingly with the manufacturers assistance at times) you almost have to wonder where the problems really exist. I would love to hear opinions from the inside for once on how "we" really deal with real life situations and customers. I for one love what some of my customers are doing with their trucks. I will admit though that I have yet to see any real performance and powertrain mod's in my dealer, probably for the obvious reasons. I have even heard of some dealers selling engine performance items like intake and exhaust systems and even programmers! That takes big round hairy ones to pull that off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrongway Posted February 28, 2005 Share Posted February 28, 2005 Keith,I am involved in just the sort of thing's that you are talking about. Yes, most dealer's here sell aftermarket goodie's, such as exhaust, programmer's, module's, lift kit's,etc. What the public refuse's to understand is, the dealer may be OK with it, but if a Ford rep is there checking on a warranty issue and see's these modification's the dealer is quick to throw them under the bus, so to speak. I sell and install all of the above, but it is known upfront, if you play, you pay. I do not expect for Ford, or any other dealer to pay for something that is directly related to a failure from an aftermarket part, but if a guy need's a waterpump, and the tech see's an aftermarket air cleaner and deny's warranty, then I have issue's. I hope I did'nt over step my bound's. What are your thought's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 28, 2005 Author Share Posted February 28, 2005 I hope I didn't over step my bounds. What are your thought's? Absolutely not! I am pretty much in agreement with the position you stated as far as whether or not the "add on" equipment directly contributed to any failure. We all know what Ford's position is on this matter and at the dealer we have to abide by their rules. I do feel that a customer has the right to customize their vehicle but common sense does set some limits. If push comes to shove however, I for one am not going to play the role of the whistle blower unless the customer pushes back when we have no choice to make a judgment against them. If a customer did something to their truck that caused a failure we generally hold them responsible... and we have given polite but specific warnings to a few. I'm sure there are dealers that turn a blind eye and there are those that take a hard nosed approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 I agree with the thrust of this thread.... and probably go a little beyond what some techs will. If a power adder isn't going to affect what I'm fixing, I don't even look for them. If the truck has some monster bullydog exhaust, as long as it's not in my way, I don't care.... When a customer brings me a truck with a running problem and he doesn't have the sense to take the chip off.... Where we might differ is on intakes.... I see far too many super-wowee intakes with dust on the wrong side of the filter. We have the chance of a dusted engine and it aint Fords fault... and I want to be sure it ain't my fault. Look at dieselstop and 6LPS and see how many 'honest' people are trying to get something for nothing.... look at usenet (newsgroups) and see how many 'honest' people are trying to get something for nothing. The general feeling is that warranty should cover stupidity... they drive them to destruction and expect someone else to pay.... Sorry for the rant.... the old booger is just feeling a little "pesky".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrongway Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 Jim, I could'nt agree more, if you play, you pay. I would'nt expect anyone to look the other way, if I caused the problem. I try to tell people to run the AFE Proguard 7 or better filter's, with a dry sock too. Just a thought, what type of filter setup have you ran across that seem's to do as good a job, beside's the stock filter? Thank's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 We have a lot of clay in our area.... in the summer, on our oil patch and logging roads, this stuff breaks up finer than flour and can hang in the air for a long, long time. For the 6.os, the stock filter is about as good as our conditions is going to see. These things can weigh a LOT before the inlet restriction gauge even budges yet there is no residue on the clean air side of the system. I haven't seen many aftermarket set ups on these, but the few I have seen always have tattletales where the shouldn't be. For the 7.3, the 6.0 look-alike filter (the one with the blue honeycomb) appears to wrok well... they don't plug off as quick as the stock paper filter yet retain a clean upstream tract. K&Ns may work well in sandy areas but they are totally useless where red clay abounds.... sand grains being much larger and heavier than clay granules. Local conditions account for more in the area of failures and the frequency of those failures than we first imagine. It may make me sound like an anti-performance add on guy but I base all my considerations on what I see in the clean side of the lnlet system. So far, my experience shows properly serviced stock filters superior in dirt stopping power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 Looks to me so far that we are of similar thinking which in my opinion is sensible and fair to all involved. Though there are owners that agree with the "you play you pay" thinking it's nice to be able to discuss this topic without all of the crying and hammering that leads to all of the fighting we are used to reading. I guess it's just the nature of the beast and to be expected. There are times at work I would love to be able to tell a customer "that's the way it is - get over it and move on," but in this politically correct World you can't do that without some repercussion from your dealer or Ford. I do think sometimes that all of this ass kissing we have to do just makes our jobs harder... but that another topic altogether! Sorry for the rant.... the young snot-nose is just feeling a little "pesky".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted March 9, 2005 Share Posted March 9, 2005 You didn't read my post on the dummy EGR on 6Lps, did you? I know I'm just a mean old prick! Seriously though, I am all about high performance, albeit my specialty is late model Mustangs and modular motor performance. On a nearly daily basis I get asked the question, " Will it void my warranty?" The rules are pretty simple, if a part or system fails due to modification, then yes, but it is only that part or system, not the entire vehicle warranty. You guys said it best. If you want to play, then you've got to pay, or at least expect to. In the Mustang market, Ford has worked pretty closely with a number of manufacturers, and the resulting products are well designed and fairly bullet proof. Quality installation, sound/knowledgable advice and some common sense on the customer's part also contribute to vehicle service life and a happy customer. Just my 2 cents. SNW FORD HIGH PERFORMANCE LLC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted March 10, 2005 Author Share Posted March 10, 2005 Yes, I just read that thread on 6LPSD. I won't comment on where it seems to be headed but I think see the relation between that post and this one, correct me if I am wrong. I sense a little frustration with the constant fiddling by owners and attempts to tweak their engines in ineffective and sometimes damaging ways. We all frequent the popular web sites and there are new posts every day by people who don't know what they are doing. The DieselStop is the worst for that and 6LPSD is in my opinion a much better site for advice for the general public. But you still get the back-end engineers and Shadetree Juds. Accept it, live and let live. So to take this off topic for a fleeting moment, I will add, that is the main reason I created this web site and made these Forums exclusive. I screen each registrant and sometimes I exchange several emails before deciding to let certain people to join us or to decline their registration. I sometimes feel bad and I have also been criticized for doing so. Here is a quote: "While your "society" may look cool to some, it is merely a group of condescending, self proclaimed experts ( pricks ) trading FMC intellectual property over the WWW. But if it helps you fix your own messes, I guess it is good for something." That one took a couple days to roll off my shoulders but I am convinced that I am doing something different here and I am committed to sticking with my original concept. One of you here has commented to me that "you seem to be headed in a different direction with this web site, and that is a good thing." I hope you all agree. I always encourage you to speak your mind and freely share knowledge but let us remember to be polite and professional. If we can help each other on dealing with customers, owners or coworkers and I am all for it. Our job's are not just all about nuts and bolts and this web site does not have to be either. Thanks for reading my rant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted March 10, 2005 Share Posted March 10, 2005 Well said!Come to think of aftermarket mods, what is the general consensus on engine brakes? Good or bad?It has always been my understanding that on the PSD, these are a big no-no, but I have not advised anyone either way.I mostly see intakes, exhaust, chips, and usually poorly installed gauges [wiring] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Keith and all.... one of my big concerns with websites like TDS stem from the "mods without thought" crowd. There are many owners that a baby fresh to diesel engines. These folks are getting advice from 'experts' that have tried a couple of mods on their own units and feel proud. Needless to say, none of these 'experts' come back to tell anyone they undid their mods because the truck turned unpredictable or unreliable ... and they sure aren't about to admit that their quest for torque may have had something to do with that rod kicking itself out the side of the motor. We only need to look at the wet stacking thread to see tunnel vision. For various reasons, I have no problem with someone modding an occasional driver but I think modding a truck that has to be dependable is counter-productive. If the friggin' thing isn't powerful enough for someones needs in stock trim, they likely bought the wrong truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Lakin Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 If the friggin' thing isn't powerful enough for someones needs in stock trim, they likely bought the wrong truck. I love this comment. I agree with the consensus. I don't see the need however for chips, upgraded turbos or injectors etc. if you need that for the vehicle to perform in the manner you wish it to you need a different truck.I wish there was some way to actually determine how many of any of the failures on the 6.0 were caused by chips or upgrades of some sort. Yes this engine has its issues but for the ones that make it to the internet I would venture to say a good portion of them were 1 of 2 things either not stock trucks or not maintained well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordMastertech Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 The dealer I work at is pretty easy going about mods and is up front with the customers and what can happen to the warranty if the mod takes something out. We generally look the other way until something big blows up and then they let me and my knowledge of what to look for go at it. In my opinion mods that are done and installed correctly as a system and not over done will not hurt anything if driven correctly. Most of the yo yo's on these other web sites, yes I do frequent them, haven't a clue as to what they are doing to their vehicles and wonder why they have all these issues with them and are educating me on what to look for when they show up at the door. I will give the customer the benefit of doubt when issues arise but if I have to remove something that is not stock and harder than what Ford's original part is to remove the customer will pay me extra or it gets parked out side. We don't get a lot of power mods except air intakes and fart can exhaust systems but get tons of cosmetic type junk due to our location and the city folk that come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drford Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 well boyz i do the same i work at a dealership and sell all kinds of pereformance toy's on the side but all my customers know " IF YOU PLAY YOU MAY HAVE TO PAY " but they sighn a waiver that i am not reliable for dammages caused by products sold only the product carries the manufacturers warranty and my installation warranty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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