Keith Browning Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I have yet to fully determine if there is any conclusive way to detect the evidence of a performance chip or tuner being used or installed and removed. I have only had one instance where it was obvious, Edge controller still on the left fender well and wire jumpers still under the hood... they guy with the Edge controller and display still screwed to the dash. I either find the hardware still installed or in the console or glove box. 7.3's, chips still in the PCM, big HOLE in the back of the PCM and cover, stickers on the truck... the list goes on.We sometimes kid around in some forums but doubt that if a device is removed, a program restored and all codes are cleared that we at the dealer level can find evidence of this having taken place. It has been rumored that Ford can take a PCM and extract data that would identify tampering and I have never personally heard anything like that from anyone "official" from Ford. I guess this flies in the face of a lot of other techs but I have never been directly asked if there was a performace device installed on any of my engine failures and only once did I have a Hot Line engineer suggest that I look for one.Ideas I have heard tossed around: A P0603, inconclusive as there are many reasons this can be set. I read on the FMC BB's that a code P0660 can be set? Never heard that before and I can't find the code listed in the PCED. Customer comes in/towed in with a performance complaint and you get a P1000! Hard to prove anything with that one - nobody knows nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Any of the p60* should throw up a flag that something may have been done to the PCM. The P0660 is for the IMTV system on a gas engine, I am not sure why that would indicate any tuning done by a programmer. The only easy way I could think of to check and see if a programmer had been used is to check the filename with the NGS+. I have never had a tuned truck in the shop but I would guess it flashes own calibration name/part number onto the PCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 The file name will most definitely be different if the performance program is installed. I'm talking about the "Sneaky Pete" that removes the performance program and reinstalls the original Ford data that was removed... and then brings the truck in to fix that hole in the block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 There is a way to find out what the last tool was to flash the VID block. But that is assuming the company that makes the programmer doesnt know the ford codes and that the tool flashed the vid block as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 If you know how to enter the engineering functions in the WDS you can examine the whole vid block. In block 124 it identifies the last tool to flash the vid. This is only if the vid was flashed as well as the calibration. The address will be populated with something like FF or something with an F to begin with. Anything other than that and it would be a program from something different than a ford tool. I cant remember exactly which address is which tool but I could find out quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 18, 2005 Author Share Posted June 18, 2005 This is under "Updates and Special Functions" on the WDS which requires a special code, the so called "code of the day". If you enter that and click on config summary then enable you will be able to see the entire vid block after you enter you tear tag. Look at the data on block 124. It should be something like FF, FE, FD, FC. All of the those codes correspond to one of the diag tools (NGS, WDS...etc). As I understand it, if there is something different then something "funny" very likely has taken place. I was told be extremely careful not to change any data or the PCM will be scrap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted June 19, 2005 Share Posted June 19, 2005 I would think that the magnacharger filter, the 4" exhaust and the guages might be a clue that all is not well. Add the P1000 and we can be sure that someone is doing something. I wouldn't be surprised about what info might be stored in a PCM.... http://www.vetronix.com/diagnostics/cdr/index.html shows that the RCM is a lot smarter than some think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 The vid block is the only thing that can store a tool ID. It probably would take someone with access to the ford software to be able to read any changes made to the calibration. Keeping in mind the calibrations are 5000+ text pages long it probably wouldnt be much fun finding minute differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrongway Posted July 3, 2005 Share Posted July 3, 2005 Guy's, without naming name's, I can say with confidence that all chip mfgs. tuner's, module's and anything else do with engine performance, do have access to all of Ford's file's. They usually run about a month behind the update's at most. You gotta remember, if it is in the public domain, somebody is gonna turn a profit on the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick01psd Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Our rep said by 2007 they will be able to tell if the was a reflash program in it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 From what I am reading here it looks like Ford already can tell if there was. What would be nice is if there was a way to easily detect it at the dealer level. Hmmm, maybe a new code like a P1001 that CANT be cleared! Maybe that will help identify the root cause of some failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2008 Share Posted January 8, 2008 i have seen most "programmers/flashers" leave a p1000 after the PCM was returned to stock.. most "tuners" on the other had just intercept the signals from the PCM to the FICM.. so if the tuner is working properly it wont change anything on the PCM.. thats why most tuners are un-detectable. and thats how the tuner can de-rate and have the factory PCM take over if anything was to happen to the engine.. i do on the other had think that programmers are the most unsafe horsepower increase tools.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I'm not so quick to judge.... Lately, I've been using the "OASIS Quick Start" feature more and more.... This feature will only upload powertrain stuff... and it indicates "some" of what goes up the pipe.... but I can't say it shows "all" of what goes up the pipe.... It does upload the mileage on the truck.... even if the cluster is pooched.... And that brings us to something I have been saying all along..... There are log files in some modules... These log files will tell <someone> everything that this log file has written to it. Obviously, the module has to be "told" what to write to the file.... I feel there is a LOT of info stored in some of these modules... but Ford is not about to tell us the hexadecimal address of these files.... I wont pretend to be some PCM guru.... But I will say that just because some hacker hasn't found some particular info doesn't necessarily mean it isn't there.... Ford is playing their cards pretty close to the chest... I'd be surprised if all manufacturers weren't. I'd hazard a guess that they wont tip their hand until they're sure they have a solid case against "aftemarket manipulation". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 You're right, Jim, Ford is playing their cards real close.... I spoke with an engineer some time ago, and he related an event that happened to him several years prior - so this puts us back to around 2000. There was an Expedition that had some type of transmission issue. Various repair attemptes had been performed, with little success. The field service engineer (the one I was conversing with) was called in to oversee the repair. The repair got escalated again to another engineer who worked in the transmission plant. The second engineer arrived with his own diagnostic equipment. The second engineer downloads information directly from the PCM into his own machine. He then starts to scan over pages and pages of data. The two engineers begin talking about the data - it was data on every single shift that this PCM had commanded. Things like engine RPM, OSS, commanded pressure, and others. The second engineer pointed to a spot in the data where the shifts started to look different. He says "this was the last shift the transmission made before the truck left the factory." The current mileage on the truck was in the 80,000's. That's quite a load of data to be stored for a system as minor as the transmission, on a vehicle as average as an expedition. Now, remember Moore's law. The number of transistors on a microchip doubles every 18 months. (which results in approximate double capacity) Imagine what the processors in the 2008's are capable of! There is a lot of data flow between the scan tool and the vehicle when we hook up. Take a look at the log file sometime - continuous codes for every module, basic vehicle information, calibration filenames, and other info. IDS is on a wireless network connected to a broadband connection. And, I don't know about yours, but our router starts flashing - indicating data flow - immediately after hooking up the IDS to a vehicle. The IDS is talking to someone on the internet every time we connect to a vehicle. Mother Ford knows just what we are doing.... Again on the 2008 - I had a faulty DPF pressure sensor to replace a while back. I pulled the truck in, turned the key off and put the key on the seat. Raised the vehicle and swapped the faulty pressure sensor. In the process, I accidentally disconnected EGT3. Noticing my mistake, I reconnected EGT3 and disconnected the pressure sensor. When I set the truck back down, I rescanned the PCM and went to clear the codes. There was a code for EGT3 circuit failure that wasn't there before... The PCM was watching what I was doing, without the key being on.... Hmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Just goes to show that MOTHER(Ford) is watching more than we think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Maybe I'll just start fixing all these trucks naked and see how mother ford likes watching that. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Shit dave, I'm sending you a bill for monitor cleaning expenses! I had just taken a bite of carrot I read your reply! Ok, reminds me of an old timer I worked with a decade ago. Shop had a very loosely enforced policy of no customers in the service area. It was regularly ignored. Customer is watching over the shoulder of a tech working a vehicle. Literally over his shoulder. Even to the point of maintaining physical contact. Made the tech a little irritated, which made him a bit bold. After repeatedly telling the customer to scram, the tech finally dropped trou. The customer was certainly not comfortable with leaning all over a tech in his skivvies, so he retreated to the waiting are. The tech finished the repair with his pants by his toolbox... Never had a problem enforcing the "no customers" regulation after that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 After reading ure post im starting to think that the VCM upload will upload all data from the computer to Ford engineers will look at all that data and then they will tell us what to do.And then the warranty nazi's will of course decline it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 If I have a customer in the service bays, someone is escorting him.... definitely no "strays" allowed... "Back in the day", I couldn't aim a spray bomb or oiler worth shit... and was often heard saying "oh, I'm sorry, did I get you with that?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BustedKnucklez Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I had a FSE tell me that if there are highly visible, shiny stars of david on the top of the pistons, a hi-po programmer was used. He said that the way to extract more power is to inject more fuel. OE injectors are very limited to the amount of fuel they can inject. So what the programmers do is command the injectors on earlier than normal so that they may inject more fuel. Since it is done earlier, the spray pattern goes outside of the piston bowl causing the star of david thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 i have seen most "programmers/flashers" leave a p1000 after the PCM was returned to stock.. Josh... P1000 isn't really a "DTC" per se.... It is only an indication that memory has been cleared and one or more feedback monitors have not completed. Removing a programmer might leave a P0603 instead... much depends on how intrusive the device is. I get the feeling that there is much about this operating system that you have yet to fully understand. I often offer the advice that if you are to fix it, you must know how it works.... This can often be very hard in it's own right.... If you are to improve it..... What can I say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 ya i understand, but when you get a truck in and the customer is saying hes having problems the first thing your most likely to do is to run a scan on the truck.. and if out of nowhere theres a p1000 would you ever question it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Now Now Mr. Bank's Power... Isn't asking techs what throws up red flags in their minds, kind of like a fox asking the hens if there is a back door to the hen house that isn't guarded??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 If I find myself in that scenario, and found the clear distance and/or warmups to be suspicious, and suspect a programmer or tuner was being used... I'd blow them right out the door. Plain and simple. I am not in this business to be played a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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