tecanic1 Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 who is actually high in diesel.. we were audited about 6 months ago and now ford is comming back again .... today my boss made a comment to me ... "The only way for me to get our numbers down is to turn away all diesel work"....As the only diesel tech in my shop I have always tried to do the right thing with ford and customer...but to have this told to me when i survive on the diesel work .....has it gotten that bad ... lots of threads on the ford sight say every one is high diesel... so If ford knows they have and issue with the 6.0 and the majority of dealers are warrenty high ...then what do you do to get the numbers down other than turn away work?????????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torqued_Up Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Last year we were high in transmissions. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif Ummmm. Me and my manager looked at each other and then asked our rep if he knew that there were two recalls out on the torqshift. We were high in diesel claims too but I dont think anything ever came of it. We do legit work so they really had nothing on us. Hey, these freaking trucks were breaking left and right. What do they expect? Oh and I wasnt implying that your work wasnt legit. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Personally I love how Ford all of a sudden does not want us to use the diagnostic guide to DIAGNOSE diesel performance and no starts. I don't know about anyone else but I was repairing 7.3 IDIs under warranty when new and 6.9s that were just a few years old and the diag standard was the worksheet. Now it seems Ford would like us to solve all the 6.0s issues with the publishing of 3 TSBs. It's not my fault stock is only valued at 8 bucks a share and Ford has lost their ass but they sure want to treat me like it is. Yeah I'm high but as a customer told me today, he recieved 4 recomendations to bring his rig to me. A delaminating tank, a fuel pump, and 4 injectors. Is any of this my fault? I think not. On the list to do, 3 turbos 2 heads and a leaking rear main on an FQR 7.3 that has been in service a whopping 2 weeks(More on that later) To paraphrase a line from the good book, "take care of the board in your own eye before you worry about the spec in someone else's eye" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselD Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 We are in the same boat. Ive always completed the diag sheets as well. Dont they push FIRT? how can you do that if you can not at least perform the rest of the diag sheet to make sure nothing else is out of wack? Frustrating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmack4 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 am in the same sinking boat as all.it's not our fault 6.0 is under engineered.am getting sick of TSB time cuts.my only hope is to make it another 8yrs then i'm outta here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Same crap here. All I can say is cross your t's and dot your I's with damn good stories to back yourself up. Or is that cross your eyes and grind your teeth? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/scratchhead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Diesel is almost all that ever comes knocking on the door.. so high diesel numbers are???? One thing we see ALL the time.... we're a small town dealer. We offer red carpet service for loyal customers and it shows in our out the door new truck price... A lot of our locals feel that the one or two thousand bucks they can save by going to Edmonton (2.5 hours away) and buying from a high volume dealer that basically says "Here's your keys - now f@ck off and bother your local store" is worth the frustration of waiting two weeks because.... well, just because. Working on trucks you didn't sell is always going to make you look lop-sided. All we can do is dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s.... and take one for the team.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Our diesel warranty numbers are always in the red. It's something that we've come to expect. We have been audited before, but came out with just a few suggestions as to how to bring it down, but we are the only commercial dealer in the east end of Toronto, we see way more volume... as well as complicated repairs that the smaller dealers shoo away. The auditors took that into consideration, and basically told us that if they had seen our kind of numbers at some of the other local dealers, they'd tear them a new one... but left us alone... As for turning away ALL diesel work, I can't see what that will do to bring your numbers down, because as far as I know, it is reviewed on a cost per repair basis... so if there are NO repairs, how can you bring that average down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHNO60 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 YUP SAME HERE. I ALWAYS KNOW WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE REPORTS UPSTAIRS. ITS PRINCIPLE/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif,SERVICE MANAGER /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif,WRITERS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crybaby2.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Our manager shoves the 126 reports down our throats at least twice a month, with a full review of everything and notes areas we need to improve on. We've been a Level-1 dealer for 3 years straight now ever since we were all "involved" with the 126 reports. But, yeah, we also have not been "allowed" to claim any diesel diag sheets anymore, because they raise our numbers. When we have a bad EGR cooler, we replace just the EGR cooler. If the oil cooler shits out, it just gets an oil cooler. We don't upsell warranty work on the diesels. Because we get chewed out hardcore for it. It sucks. We fix these vehicles at cheaply as possible and it really aggrivates me because I *KNOW* they'll be back sometimes. I miss the days when we had a truck with a problem, and we just fixed it right. Now, we have to bounc around all these horseshit numbers and bite our nails abot audit threats because we're "over repairing" vehicles. Ford didn't seem to care about the fact that our repeat repairs/Repairs per 1000 section on the 126 sheets was blowing everyone else out of the water... they were pissed because we averaged more dollars per R.O. And it wasn't even that bad. So "fix it right the first time" has officially taken a back seat to "fix it as cheap as possible and hope it doesn't come back soon". I'm really excited to see where this goes in another year. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwayneGorniak Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Our dealership is in the same boat that Jim's is in. They put us smaller dealerships into the same group of dealerships that are in the city. Then they compare our numbers of sold units to the city dealerships which are obviously smaller and then compare our numbers of units repaired to the city dealerships. And being that we repair alot of trucks,our ratio of vehicles repaired to vehicles sold is through the freakin roof. Isn't that a biotch? If you have a good service department, you're being bad. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitechmech Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 We are high in our numbers as well, but customer loyalty plays a huge part of that, please one customer by being honest and up front with them, filling them in and word of mouth next thing you know you're doing jobs from people who live hundreds of miles away and only want you working on their vehicle. Seven years ago i moved 180 miles north and was surprised at how many followed. The only slow time for me is when i take time off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastendpowerstroke Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 We are fortunate I guess we fix what needs to be fixed report be damned. We feel the customer is the one that needs to be happy with your performance not Ford.yet we are still below the curve 99% of the time and the warranty clerk gets upset. we were audited about two years ago after a spike of A/C work mid summer and the audit flag wasn't squashed by our "Rep" at the time (I won't start a tirade about affirmative action now) could have fixed it but She is stupid, so the stormtroopers came in for a week and left with nothing because we had our I's dotted and T's crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff_E Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 We are very high in Diesel repairs too. Luckily it's the only area we have in the red right now, and as such, we're not too worried because if only Diesels are high, they leave you alone. There is a message about that on FMC dealer in the warranty bulletins. I also heard from a PSMAC rep that they are planning to re-evaluate the bell curve next year so that truck shops aren't grouped with low volume truck dealers when comparing Diesel repair costs. That should help all of us out hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Dave L, the way ure dealership is will garuntee comebacks on 6.0L's. If the oil cooler shits out....u have to replace the egr cooler. No ifs ands or butts. Ive been burned many times by doing just that and now our manager says... just fix the truck and make sure it doesnt come back for the same concern. Doing this has actually brought our numbers down. I think our manager mentioned the 126 once, to us that means nothing. All he says is make sure u justify what you are doing... right the failed part and what caused it. E.g. a bank of injectors going out...low fuel pressure....cause.... fuel pump...or whatever. We were in a unofficial audit and out of all the diesel tickets i had one that i forgot to right "performed relative compression check" when doing the pinpoint test for an injector. Other then that we stay in the yellow. Just follow the TSB's, CONTACT HOTLINE about ANY REPEAT concerns. They have gotten us out of a lot of poop with Ford. I had 3 injectors out on a 6.0 e-van because low fuel pressure and combustion gases were getting in....contacted hotline about the 4th, they simply siad in writing "anytime combustion gases enter fuel rail, the entire bank must be replaced." I knew that, but nowhere in the tsb does it say that. Thats how u get away with those repairs. Oil cooler goes bad, call them up...tell them ure readings are more than 25 degrees, they will write down on the hotline sheet. "anytime oil cooler is change, you must replace EGR cooler" thats how u get outta that problem. Hotline is there for a reason. They cover our asses a lot if u know how to use them. Also Dave L, we have to do a diesel diag sheet FOR EVERY REPAIR and thats from Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamageINC Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 Oh believe me, this is not news to me or our manager. Fact is, it just doesn't work here. I know as well as everyone here that the EGR cooler should come in the same box as the Oil cooler & sold as a valu-pack. I have trouble getting hotline to tell me what I want to hear, as far as EGR Cooler/Oil Cooler and injector replacement goes and whatnot, seems like each time I am trying to get them to tell me to replace the parts I really believe should be replaced, I'm told to "reference TSB xx-xx-xx" instead. The latest crackdown is that we aren't allowed to claim M-time anymore for these things. Period. No more M-time. No NPF time, regardless of how much time you may have into looking for a problem that won't act up. But whoopee, we got Level-1 status again. Until Ford jumps on us about making absolutely sure that we fill out our diag sheets, we won't be using them because they raise our numbers. We are actually kicking ass as far as the 126 reports go, as far as the big hitters on the 126 sheet goes (cost per repair, repairs per 1000, so on...) and it's because of the way we run things. But it also flat-out sucks for us as techs. Not much we can do except sit back and deal with it. Our manager has been very worried because he's apparently hearing that there will be an enormous crackdown on the diesel end of the 126 reports with some huge investigating going on. The good thing is that he "knows" we're way ahead of the curve and we'll definitely survive the next couple years becuase we're used to the way things are eventually going to be. He's also almost positive that there will be a LOT of dealers in the area that well end up in deeper shit than a midget cleaning out a port-a-potty and will have to severely cut back on their diesel service. The good thing is that we'll be up to our asses in diesel work, but it may be too much to handle as well. I guess time will tell. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony302600 Posted December 21, 2007 Share Posted December 21, 2007 What are u telling hotline. I tell them whats going on with the truck and they say... U MUST REPLACE all 4 injectors when one lets combustion gases into rail.. Or "whenever changing oil cooler you much change egr cooler" I print it out, and wala. The hotline engineers are cool, they know what the hell is going on, they know what it needs to fix it, they know what will keep it from coming back. Sometimes i tell them, hey i need that on the report, and they say no problem. It's gotta be something ure not telling them. Ure only hurting ure dealership when u dont go the extra mile and not replace what you damn well know will fix the truck. If it comes back same concern, Ford will flag it, u get a crappy survey and then u get badmouthed by the owner. I'm sure some of you guys dont agree with me but whatever floats ure dealerships boat. Ever since we've been doing it this way or comebacks have lowered drastically. we used to jsut replace one injector after doing the injector tsb and not the whole bank. Then the truck would come in for another on that bank, and then we'd get chewed out for that. We used to just do the egr coolers when they blew.... then it would come back blown again , then we did the tsb again, oil cooler reads ok...why is it back for another egr cooler. Oh wait, oil cooler gets restricted, now we do oil cooler and egr cooler at the same time when the oil cooler goes bad and we've been doing awesome. Goes back to what i was saying... "ure damned if you do, you're damned if you dont." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LARRY BRUDZYNSKI Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Sorry, I don't mean to hi-jack the thread... But I have a question and I think that all you guy's hear could probably clear it up. When you have a injector loose a seal and start putting combustion chamber gases up the side, why do you have to replace them all? Does it contaminate the whole bank of 4 or is it just a precaution? The reason for my question is that we have had a few warranty issues on the 6.0 injectors recently, and we are currently trying to establish the reason for the failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 You got it, Larry.... combustion pressures can be very, very high - especially in high boost conditions (to oversimplify - a 6.0 litre engine under one atmosphere of boost (14PSI) thinks it's a 12 litre engine.... not accounting for any pumping losses and such). These gasses are going to be very hot and could carry particulates with them. The gasses can also displace any fuel in the rail leaving the injectors to "dry hump" themselves to an early grave.. Hope that helps clear the waters a little... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 22, 2007 Share Posted December 22, 2007 Jeff.... a lot of us are in that same boat.... Reading some internet forums (and seeing some of the previous repairs that come through our doors), it's pretty obvious that there are many diesel certified techs that shouldn't be - guys that are just plain in over their heads. Our guys are good and that gives our shop a good rep (except for the backlog we always have - but there is more than one story in that statement). Add that we are in the heart of the oilpatch.... we always have a lot of transient workers in the area and most of these guys drive diesels... When they have a concern, it is the closest store that they will find and pin their hopes on. All they want to do is get back to work... Now.... let's take a giant step back and look at "the BIG picture". We techs only ever consider the shop.... Ford doesn't. The sales department is where Ford makes money... and that is the department that Ford is worried about. They don't give a rats ass if the shop is doing well or not.... as long as the shop isn't costing them too much money - and that is the key. Your shop, my shop, Kieths shop.... none of us will ever make Ford any money. Sure, we can be good and have an influence on a customers future purchase... But, in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't mean too much and I'm off on another tangent..... A good tech is going to be a good tech wherever he goes.... toolboxes do have wheels. We can take our knowledge and experience.... that, along with a little brand specific training, will have us being "the man" at a Dodge store, a GM store or anywhere else we choose to go. There's a great big blue oval on the front of our store... but there isn't one on the front of my toolbox. Techs are "wild cards" and both Ford and their stockholders don't like wild cards... we can take all of our goodness and be gone in a heartbeat. So.... we can see that Ford is in the business of selling units. And that selling units is the only thing they are in to... and that brings us to one very, very sad realization... and I'm not sure anyone is ready for this.... If your diesel techs are shitty... so shitty that no diesel owner will ever darken your doorstep again - Ford will like your store because your numbers are lower than another store. If your diesel techs are good... provide accurate diags and repairs that work, you attract business. If that business you attract is warranty business, your "numbers" go up and the red flag starts waving and Ford puts us under the microscope... And - yep... another tangent. The dealerships service department exists only because Ford says we must service what we sell. They don't like broken units and they don't like paying to fix them. If we consider flat rate and the "redesigned" SLTs, we see a very real need to cultivate retail work... we see a need to assign "preferred customer" status (Ford really hates that)... Ford bases success on "units sold". Our store bases success on "net profit" at years end. Be it on a personal level or a dealership level... we can't ever hope to please everyone at the same time. So we are given the task of pleasing customers... but trying to do it in a way that doesn't ruffle Fords feathers... It is a very fine line to tread - but that's where your shop foreman should step in and "fine tune" what happens between you and Ford. By all means... continue to be the best you can ever be.... this is how you determine your success and sustain your earning ability... but there is so much to the equation that doesn't meet the eye. The needs of your store are not the needs of Ford - and that is a conumdrum we will live with forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdtheclub Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Were not high in diesels and far as I know we never have been. We have five diesel techs and that's all we work on. The 6.0 is a piece of junk but just fix what's wrong and diag them right and I don't see how you could be higher than anyone else. I've never needed to use a diag sheet but I do fill them out as Ford says we have to use them to diag them right. But most of the time the whole sheet does not need to be done. Like the balloon test. It only needs doing if you have an injector concern. Another one if fuel restriction. It only needs to be done if your fuel pressure drops below spec. And Ford is right, most of the time a TSB does cover the repair and I think they pay great. M time for head gaskets, 8.0 hours for H.P fitting that takes 2.0 hours to do. Life is great if I a get three or four of them in a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 8.0 for head gaskets? Please e-mail your resume employment@slford.com - you wouldn't believe the earning potential.... Three diesel techs (including yours truly) and all the up to date equipment - we have more scanning power than a lot of shops three times our size.... But watch out for the shop foreman... he can be a gnarly old @sshole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 M time for head gaskets, 8.0 hours for H.P fitting that takes 2.0 hours to do. Life is great if I a get three or four of them in a day. Jim...you need to put your glasses on... The last good shop I worked in the good SM got stupid and was fired. The new guy posted the 126 on the bulletin board that surrounded the time clock. Lots of red ink notes on it for us to see every day...he & the GM discourged ANY computer use, this was back in summer of 03 when the 6.0L was just starting to show itself, as they felt time on the computer was "wasted time"... I wish you all luck with this crap...I just don't have the heart to fight to be able to do what is right. It's a constant fight with parts & management to do OUR jobs... /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/hitthefan.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Lew... I have to admit that I left the old reading specs at work.... thanx for the correction.... 8.0 for HGs... I can still dream, right? FWIW... the job offer is still open to any and all.... I have a Mexican starting on Jan two. I NEED experienced guys (Jeez, what do I have to do to get some takers.... swallow?). We have a shop about 1.5 hours from us... one tech there says 9.0 for HGs.... but I've had to deal with some of his "work". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snw blue by you Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 Were not high in diesels and far as I know we never have been. We have five diesel techs and that's all we work on. The 6.0 is a piece of junk but just fix what's wrong and diag them right and I don't see how you could be higher than anyone else. I've never needed to use a diag sheet but I do fill them out as Ford says we have to use them to diag them right. But most of the time the whole sheet does not need to be done. Like the balloon test. It only needs doing if you have an injector concern. Another one if fuel restriction. It only needs to be done if your fuel pressure drops below spec. And Ford is right, most of the time a TSB does cover the repair and I think they pay great. M time for head gaskets, 8.0 hours for H.P fitting that takes 2.0 hours to do. Life is great if I a get three or four of them in a day. Not to pick on anyone, but I call bullshit. This reads like an FMC propaganda leaflet. Everything you say is contrary to the Ford diesel tech reality. Nice try but bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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