forddieseldoctor Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Long story short I think I got a 5.4 3v in a 2009 F-250 that has oil pressure issues. Both cams hang out when it's good and hot at idle with -40* of vct error. If I manage to get it to rev up they will change to about -20*. I did drive it and all of a sudden the error pids drop to zero and it takes off somewhat normal. I just put a bank 1 phaser, vct solenoid and body, and both tensioners in it cause it had cyl 3 and cyl 4 misfire codes and bank 1 cam either retarded or advanced too far( I don't remember which, I didn't write it down and I'm not using IDS so I can't go back and look). The question at hand is if I start getting too low on oil pressure will the phasers retard the cams? It felt normal after I put it back together and drove it for the first 10 miles anyway. I did not verify oil pressure yet. I don't have a gauge at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybullitt Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Definately check that hot oil pressure. At work we wont do any 5.4 3v repairs unless we have good hot oil psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 What would you consider good? The new book spec? I've measured quite a few 5.4 3 valves hot and wasn't very sure what's good and what's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddieseldoctor Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Spec is 15 at idle. I looked at one at work on Monday in an F150 that measured 20 psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YukonTyler Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the cams will retard at default. The locking pin should get them neutral when not commanded on, and then when they are phased it's to advance. Spec was 18+ psi once upon a time. Then it got lowered to 15 after the fact ... I also like to find a baseline hot oil pressure reading before starting anything, but even so you're just getting pressure at the bottom end and there's too many places for pressure to drop on its way to the top. And of course it's the top end that requires all the darn pressure. Between the bottom end (seen many with bad mains and walking cranks due to thrust bearings), band aid revised solenoids, tensioners, scored cams, plugged galleys and plugged screens in the bodies you never know how many areas are going to be bad. What repairs one will seldom repair another with the exact same symptoms. Drill out the end of an 820 filter and fit it with a nice metal valve stem off of an HD rig. It's much easier than getting at the pressure switch, and this way you can take the pressure of a hot truck without burning yourself. I sometimes feel like it's not the best practice, but when I hear these things coming in with that deep knocking sound and I often suggest a retail long block. They come to you when they barely run cold let alone hot, they haven't seen spark plugs changed in years and they have a big orange oil filter on the bottom which is caked with mud. On many to diag them requires repairing them, and when you can't say for certain if phasers, solenoids and tensioners will do the trick it's a tough job to sell. And if you're wrong then you're married to it. Not fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmantech Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Tyler could you post a pic of that oil filter pressure adaptor? I have been wanting to make one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I hear you man, I'm sure we've all been into a few that we had no idea if it was getting fixed with tensioners, solenoids or phasers. I've been lucky enough to call long blocks when they needed them and not been burned by one yet. Anymore I always pull cam caps before digging too deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddieseldoctor Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the cams will retard at default. The locking pin should get them neutral when not commanded on, and then when they are phased it's to advance.I thought that they could retard the timing as well as advance. I have not had a chance to check oil pressure yet, but I did drive it on Sunday and it did run normal cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybullitt Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Found this at the end of the 5.4 3v job aid Camshaft Phaser Function and Operation: • Phasers enable camshafts to advance and retard relative to the crankshaft. • Engine oil pressure is delivered by solenoids to the phasers to advance and retard camshaft timing. • Phaser pins lock the phaser at base timing when engine is idling (read as 0 degrees when viewing PID). Oil pressure unlocks the pins when engine speed is increased. Spring pressure locks the pin when engine returns to idle and phaser returns to base timing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddieseldoctor Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 I found and read through the job aid. But my question is what locks and unlocks the pin? Is it oil pressure or centrifical force? And what pulls them back to neutral so they can re-lock? I'm wondering if them being unlocked when the oil pressure drops can cause them to not lock back in at a neutral state. It finally warmed up enough that I can get it hot without having to drive it for an hour and I am going to check oil pressure hot tomorrow. I will report what I find with oil pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybullitt Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I think the pin lock is mechanical. Pin is locked by spring pressure and the pcm commands oil pressure to unlock pin then adjust timing as needed. I also think that if oil pressure gets low it cant get them neutral Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddieseldoctor Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Makes sense. When I started it up the next day it cranked and sounded like it had crap compression till it got oil pressure. And now when I start it up it cranks like normal. But it didn't get hot enough for the cams to drop to full retarded the last time I ran it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddieseldoctor Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 And it's junk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddieseldoctor Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 I think the pin lock is mechanical. Pin is locked by spring pressure and the pcm commands oil pressure to unlock pin then adjust timing as needed. I also think that if oil pressure gets low it cant get them neutral I got another one at work. Was just bought by one of our fleet customers used from the same company that the other one I posted about originally came from. And yes with the IDS I was able to see both cams getting pulled towards the retarded side. This one was only about -45 degrees of vct error when it acted up. But the oil pressure was at 13 psi instead of 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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