'P' Rated Tires on a Truck That Should Have 'LT'

[mchan68]

Well, it was Friday when in rolled an '06 F-350 dually with a complaint of an intermittent no-start that the customer INSISTS that glow plugs are the problem and wants me to change all eight (don't you just love "those" kind of customers?). I replaced a FICM on this truck about a month ago due to FICM voltages dropping down to around 28. Replaced FICM and life was good at between 47.5 to 49.

 

Yesterday it rolls in with the same complaint, and I scan it with no DTCs and unable to duplicate the customer complaint that the engine "just cranks". OASIS revealed that this truck already had the update 4C3Z-9B246-A STC fitting done a couple years back at some dealer in Texas, so I ruled out high pressure oil system leaks. But just for shits and giggles, I decided to rev the engine up to 3800 RPMs (pedal to the floor) 'till EOT/ECT got up to 195 or so degrees. I then tried to restart the engine, and low and behold ICP only climbed to 230 psi. Air tested it, and very quickly determined the lower d-rings on the rail plugs needed replacement, after which life was good.

 

Fast forward to the next work order line, for "nail in left/front tire". I removed the nail, and notice it's not deep enough to penetrate the belts. I then very quickly notice that this truck has 'P' rated tires on all six rims (Goodyear Wranglers to be exact). Very quickly, I brought it to the attention of the service advisor and the service manager, and here is where it gets twisty.

 

The advisor checks the service history, and determines that this truck was bought used at our dealer. At some point, the six tires were installed (not by our shop because our machine can't handle dually wheels), but were subletted to a nearby tire shop. During the course of all the oil changes and services thus far, it has been done by other techs in the shop (I guess any idiot can do an oil change). The only time my hands have been on it, were the FICM replacement and the work I did yesterday. My service manager says, "just don't say anything". My service advisor suggests to scrape the door decal data plate off . I repeatedly mention the potential for liability to us (if this guy catches on that he has the wrong tires, MTO pulls him over, his tire(s) blows out etc.). But the final order is to "keep it quiet". None the less, I wrote it in the black and white on the RO hard copy that "this vehicle has incorrect load rated tires installed" just to cover my ass, with my initials on it.

 

I can't believe that the advisor's and the manager's only concern is how much of a shit storm this customer will cause, or how much money it will cost to "give" this guy six new tires. Given that this customer likes to "stir the pot", like telling the advisor to "tell" me how to diagnose his truck's engine issues.

 

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK I SHOULD DO?

[Bruce Amacker]

I brought it to the attention of the service advisor and the service manager, and here is where it gets twisty.

 

This is a management issue, not a technical issue. As soon as you inform mgt of the problem and document it, the problem is out of your hands.

 

Sleep well!

 

 

 

:grin!

[Fredsvt]

Please don't tell me those P tires were up at 65 psi or better.

 

I think you did all you can do.

 

Can you check the hard copy in a couple of days? One of my former bosses used to either white out or black out stuff we wrote on hard copies that he didn't like. And he'd never tell the customer. That pissed me off tremendously.

 

Unless you drop a little note in the truck, which of course will be traced back to you. That may cause a shit storm of its own.

[mchan68]

Please don't tell me those P tires were up at 65 psi or better.

 

I think you did all you can do.

 

Can you check the hard copy in a couple of days? One of my former bosses used to either white out or black out stuff we wrote on hard copies that he didn't like. And he'd never tell the customer. That pissed me off tremendously.

 

Unless you drop a little note in the truck, which of course will be traced back to you. That may cause a shit storm of its own.

 

 

Our system is on ADP electronic ROs. I hate writing on hard copies. I prefer typing everything in the system. Once the RO is invoiced, the customer gets the copy with everything I typed in the system. Yes, I can check the hard copy in a couple of days. I'm glad you asked, which means you obviously knew where I was going with this thread.

 

Here's the next twister. When this truck comes due for its mandatory PMCVI inspection, just by virtue of having the wrong load rated tires on the vehicle to me is grounds for NOT putting my signature on the certificate. Does this mean my manager will overide my authority by signing it himself. I am HOPING that this guy will need to have another set replaced by the time it comes due for it, but I highly doubt it.

[mchan68]

And no, I didn't pump the tires up to 65 psi.

[Aaron]

Plates off.

 

Text on RO:

 

UNSAFE TO DRIVE

VEHICLE DOES NOT MEET PMCVI CERTIFICATE STANDARDS

MTO NOTIFIED, PLATES REMOVED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.

 

In PERMANENT marker.

 

Nice thing about my shop? My boss signs all the certificates, and if you say something isn't safe, it doesn't get signed.

[F350SD55]

I haven't used ADP electronic RO for over four years now, but if I remember correctly if you go back and redo your story the original story would still be in the system but not printed on the customers copy.

[Fredsvt]

I wish it was that easy to get shitboxes off the road. There are SO many I would love to remove.

 

I worked on a '92 F150, 4.9, turned into a lunch truck. Read, way overweight.

 

The boss says, put a tire on it. Don't attempt to lift it. The owner said "it'll break in two".

 

So I go to it, and see that the frame is broken in two on both sides ahead of the forward leaf spring brackets. It had been plated once before and split again. It was like that for a long long time, as the ends of the frame were pounded round and there was about 3/4" between the break. There's a 60 gallon propane tank bolted TO the frame on BOTH sides of the break. EEK

 

I lift only the offending tire and replace it.

 

So I take the VIN, plate, etc and keep it.

 

I called our MVC and two police departments, local and state.

 

The local and state are in a pissing match who has jurisdiction in the town I work in. Neither would take any responsibility to have a cruiser stop the truck and inspect it. That was a waste.

 

The MVC was at least helpful, but they can't forcibly "recall" a vehicle that was PASSED at a private facility within a month of me seeing it.

 

They did remove that private facility's license.

 

But yet.... the fucking piece of shit is still on the road. I see it drive by multiple times a week.

[Aaron]

Easy. Call the thing in from a payphone, and say the guy is swerving all over the road like he's impaired, and the truck doesn't look very safe, either.

[Brad Clayton]

I dont give shit like this a second thought. There is way worse running around that we dont even know about. I just give a headshake and say is this how you really wanna roll/let it play out? Then I give another headshake.

[Jim Warman]

Number one on the list..... IS THE VEHICLE ROADWORTHY AS PRESENTED? While it is a chickenshit bastard fucked up way for things to be viewed... this would be the hinge for anything in a court of law.

 

We see more than our fair share of BRAND NEW one ton trucks (no duallies yet, as far as I know) with load range D tires. Every last owner has requested these tires.... indeed, part of what closed the deal was the inclusion of these tires. Every last owner will bitch about the TPMS warnings....

 

But... can you be mad at your sales department? You know fucking well that if they don't make the sale - no matter how distasteful you may realize it has become.... the guy down the street will close the deal... Bottom line... you will do it or you will starve.

 

So.... before we go further, let's look at what various things have to say about tires......

 

Let's start with the manual I use for Out of Province inspections... No mention of tire load rating.... No mention of valve stems either... but there is another matter - one I hope I can remember to touch upon in a bit. In two pages.... they cover tread depth.... tread section... sidewalls...and type.... At no point am I required to fail, reject or even document (even though I do) a load range D tire on a truck that should have load range E tires. No... there is nothing mentioned about tire pressure...

 

Once we get into the CVIP manual (commercial vehicle inspection program), we get into tire pressures... and you will have to be careful when wording your rejection... We have the direction "reject if any tire is over/underinflated". I need to be absolutelyu sure that the customer sees that it isn't 'me' making this decision... but I am fucking happy to have someone else to blame it on...

 

But it ain't complete without a visit with the ambulance manual... and here is a curve ball... Nothing about load range... Just a cryptic "pressure not within 10% of pressure on OEM certification level".

 

I have spent a lot of time trying to navigate CMVSS and FMVSS (Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards).. and they are difficult... I never seem to be able to find any section I am looking for... The sections I have read are complex.. difficult to understand (they are written in "lawyerspeak")and open to interpretation...

 

Speaking of interpretation... If I phone Alberta Transportation or Alberta Infrastucture or the Health unit ambulance section for clarification... I get "political" answers... "What do I think?". Well... I think I'd like to have some clarification.... But - if it ain't in the manual... you ain't getting it.

 

Valve stems... our local tire shops like passenger valve stems... rated at 60 PSI, these things are commonly found in load range E tire installations (usually rated max load at 80 PSI). None of my manuals offer me the option or ability to fail a vehicle due to inappropriate valve stems.

 

Bottom line... If you can't quote the "bible", you ain't going anywhere... If you ask, you will be told to use your judgement... when pressed, the manual will not exonerate you...

 

I've probably forgotten a half dozen things I would have liked to remark on... But the inportant thing to remember, Mike - and you must remember I am speaking as an Albertan... - is to cover your ass...

 

I wish I could navigate the CMVSS better than I can...

 

Mike... you see a truck with the wrong tires on it...

 

What you are really seeing is one of the very big probleme with this trade...

[mchan68]

Since this customer is a "shit stirrer" I kind of understand my service advisor not wanting to tell him that OOPS someone screwed up with your tires and either way we are liable for it. I, however would like to see this situation fixed... If this guy gets into an accident or catches on his own that he has the wrong load rated tires, he will flip and probably even sue the dealer in which case he has the absolute right to do so.

To be honest, I would be happy if the service advisor (or service manager) would order the PROPER tires for this vehicle, have them changed, with or without the owner's knowledge. At least I would know in my conscience that I didn't allow them to release the truck like this, in this state.

I have ran into this issue many times before, when I've tried to quote new tires for trucks. My parts manager will say, "C'mon Mike, you don't want to lose a sale do you?". In other words, these guys only care about making the almighty $$$ instead.

Bottom line, I don't give a rat's ass who pays, as long as I've done my job, and no one is going to hang MY nuts, if/when THIS shit ever hits the fan.

[Jim Warman]

But you DO care who pays, Mike. That's why you aren't racing down to the tire shop with your credit card in your hand. I wish I could be sure of reading the section in the CMVSS that I need to form a better opinion of where we stand.... I wish YOU could read that same section... I wish everyfuckingbody could read it.

 

But what will it mean? Yeah... there's all kinds of wrong things happening because people don't know any better... There's all kinds of wrong things happening because "this is the way we've always done it"...

 

It is going to take a concerted effort to make things right... it is going to take legislation (can you spell political suicide?) to make things right. We can whimper about this kind of shit on DTS all we want. Nothing will change.

 

We need to become self regulating... we need to grow some balls... we need to do a lot of things that will make us a profession rather than a trade.

 

You are complaining about something that has been going on for a long, long time... If it means that much to you, help me fix it....

[Jim Warman]

On reflection, it almost looks like I'm trying to justify this kind of crap.... relax... nothing could be further from the truth...

 

But that wont keep me from playing the devils advocate...

 

We need a concerted effort across the whole of the industry to eradicate some of the customer (and sometimes technician driven) insanity that we see almost every day... But you will always see someone that is going to alter the GVW rating of his truck with a inappropriate tire... you will see an early SuperCrew with a 5th wheel hitch mounted BEHIND the rear axle... you will open a hood and see a cold air intake that gets hot underhood air.... and on and on.

 

Some of it's illegal but disregarded.... some of it should be illegal and some of it is just plain fucking goofy.

 

(Mickey Mouse in divorce court... "But, your honor... I didn't say Minnie was insane - I said she was fuckin' Goofy).

 

The need to earn profits will drive some people to do some strange things... and we can always justify it to some extent that the guy down the street would do it, anyway (and, most likely he would).

 

What is needed is a crack down on offenders... a massive public awareness campaign and a training program to enlighten those in the trade...

 

How many here use tire plugs? How many here realize that rope type plugs are considered a temporary repair? What can anyone tell us about tire valve stems?

 

One of our biggest problems is that we don't know what we don't know...

 

AHA!!!!! I think I found something here and there's some more stuff here

 

FWIW... I still get to see directional tires on the wrong side of the car

[Aaron]

^^^

 

I think the best thing, is when you tell a customer -- Hey, your tires are on the wrong side of your car, without any other explanation...just to see the look on their face

[mrbudge]

Just had an Escape in last week four brand new LT's on it. Complaining it seemed to drag on decel. Maybe they would like to trade.

[Fredsvt]

I'm surprised they didn't have the tires on the Escape at 80 psi.

 

Years ago, I had a customer with an S10 4x4 who had E rated tires put on it, and insisted they be put at 80 psi. He'd hear nothing of putting the correct tires and pressure.

 

Put WAY more ball joints in that truck than any other S10 I can ever remember. Job security.

[Jim Warman]

I pulled an out of province inspection into my bay this ayem.... The tire shop in Peace River was kind enough to install 4 new passenger valve stems in his rims before they wrapped them in load range E tires...

 

A tire shop, you say? How very professional....

[Tony302600]

Easy. Call the thing in from a payphone, and say the guy is swerving all over the road like he's impaired, and the truck doesn't look very safe, either.

Thats what i woulda done.

[Aaron]

Originally Posted By: Aaron

Easy. Call the thing in from a payphone, and say the guy is swerving all over the road like he's impaired, and the truck doesn't look very safe, either.

Thats what i woulda done.

You're "THAT GUY" too then?