mchan68 Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 How would you guys handle this? I have a 2008 F-550 dump truck that was originally towed in months ago for a horrible engine knock issue. It has been sitting on our back yard ever since because I smell shit hitting the fan with this one. The vehicle in question has about 68,000 kms. and 2665 hours on the clock. According to in-service date it still has coverage. I told the advisor I wasn't willing to pursue it any further until I have maintenance records because I KNOW FoMoCo is definitely going to ask for them. Rather than get too far into it, here's my prior approval log: Diesel Engine Prior Approval Process Request Form Summary VIN 1FDAX56R68ED61925 Vehicle Model 2008 F-SERIES Repair Order Number 147995 Repair Order Date 05-28-2013 Line Number of R.O. A Hotline ContactID 106362778 Request Date 05-30-2013 Status Incorrect Form Used Prior Approval Code Repair Already Completed Request NO Request Form Details 1. Please describe customers concern. Include as many details as possible. Vehicle runs rough, with smoke exiting tailpipe. Engine noise consistent with a bottom end knock heard with engine running. 2. If applicable, please list any prior repair attempts (driveability or transmission related) which may have contributed to the customer symptom. NONE. 3. Please provide the diagnostic steps that were performed to determine that the assembly needed to be replaced. Please list the pinpoint tests completed and include test results (pressure readings, electrical measurements, etc.). IDS test. Cylinder #4 contribution low/misfire DTCs retrieved. Also revealed cylinders #4 and #8 weak on power balance with weak cylinder compensation strategy disabled. 4. List major components (by name, not part#) needed for repair: Short block, cylinder heads and valvetrain parts. 5. Please list part (by name, not part#) that was root cause of failure: Engine heavily sludged up. 6. Provide any additional details necessary. Please include any technical information that you feel will help the Hotline process your prior approval request. All internal engine components heavily sludged up. DTC: P0272:__ Module: PCM DTC: P0304:__ Module: PCM Comment History Comment From: Ford Comment Date: 5/30/2013 12:37:32 PM please submit maximun clear pictures showing the heavy sludge from different angles and state if it is the result of lack of proper engine maintenance or any other source.and additional pictures showing failed comonents selected on the cost cap for replacement. Comment From: DEALER Comment Date: 6/3/2013 10:35:29 AM Attached are pictures of engine views with both valve covers removed. Sludge appears similar to a vehicle lacking proper maintenance but customer has supplied documentation to prove maintenance has been done. Comment From: Ford Comment Date: 6/3/2013 11:30:18 AM Michael, please scan and attach the provided maintenance records as a PDF file for further review. Comment From: DEALER Comment Date: 6/3/2013 4:50:13 PM Attached, please find the requested scanned copies of all maintenance records for the vehicle referenced. Comment From: Ford Comment Date: 6/4/2013 7:33:15 AM request rejected without action as dealer does not need approval to do a repair as per cost cap tool decision. Comment From: DEALER Comment Date: 6/6/2013 12:04:58 PM There are two fuel injectors among the list of other parts required, to repair this engine in the original cost cap submission. Do they not require prior approval, even if a short block and two new cylinder heads by themselves do not? Comment From: Ford Comment Date: 6/6/2013 12:29:24 PM prior approval for 6.4 engine injectors must be obtained. as per w&pm sec 1-4 prior approval for diesel components should be addressed to tech hotline on line. Comment From: DEALER Comment Date: 6/12/2013 9:52:35 AM The vehicle came in as a runs rough smoking concern. There was engine noise when it was running and heard knocking noise at the bottom end of the engine. Inspected the engine and have found that it is severely sludge, the oil was dirty and thick. When it is running it wants to stall out almost all the time. Inspected the coolant level and was within specifications, and the oil level was not overfull at the time. The customer has provided maintenance records which have been provided. Checked the engine hours and have found that it is around 2265. The vehicle does not seem to be maintained and is idled excessively. Would like a representative to come out and inspect the engine to make a warranty determination of the repair. Comment From: Ford Comment Date: 6/12/2013 9:52:35 AM Michael, The warranty decision can be made at the dealer level and involvement of the field service engineer is not necessary at this time. It is recommended to take the engine hours that are present with the vehicle and multiply by 40 to obtain the kilometers that the vehicle should have. Based on the current engine hours it would indicate that it idles excessively and can lead to the condition that the vehicle has. Based on the maintenance records it would indicate that the last oil change was performed over a year ago and no mileage as to when it was done. The sludge that is present is due to the vehicle idling excessively as there is no concern with the coolant system. Based on the information provided that dealer is capable of making a warranty decision for the repair. Additional Comments You have 950 characters remaining ... You must type in text for comment box! Max Length for this field is 950! Attachments/Images No Images Required Select Type Image Text PDF ZIP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20130603135639.pdf The contact details above should tell the whole story of the situation I'm faced with. The service manager is hounding my ass and the advisor's ass to "get this vehicle in and diagnosed". Really? Diagnose WHAT? The pictures requested and submitted are that of both valve covers removed, showing nothing but pure black tar like consistency about a good 3/8" thick, caked to the valve covers, never mind the valve train and all the other components. As for the maintenance records submitted? I think it's safe to say they are fraudulent putting it lightly. Long story short, I am trying to prevent shit from hitting the fan, which I almost KNOW is going to happen if I put forth with this repair under warranty. What would you guys do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbudge Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 What was the cost cap tool's decision? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 We have put through 6L short blocks on ESP dieselcare as excessive cylinder wall taper, that were obviously dusted. Service managers decision, not mine. The bigger question here is are you concerned about not getting paid for the job if the claim is denied? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 We have put through 6L short blocks on ESP dieselcare as excessive cylinder wall taper, that were obviously dusted. Service managers decision, not mine. The bigger question here is are you concerned about not getting paid for the job if the claim is denied? THAT is EXACTLY what concerns me. I'm almost ready to go postal on the service manager and the advisor every time I try to convey to both of them that I foresee a shitstorm of a bouncing on this particular situation. My service manager keeps singing the "You will get paid as long as BLAH BLAH BLAH...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 They cannot legally debit you hours after you have already been paid for them Or was yours the shit story dealer that was making the techs wait until claims got paid before they got paid? Give me a shout tonight, Mike, anytime before about 10 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Clyde Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 This sounds more to me about getting paid, versus fixing a broken truck. To me, if you document everything, and involve Hotline ( although they don't guarantee Warranty coverage), perform and record all tests and steps as per the Warranty Policy, and express concern to management, the onus is on them to determine whether to proceed with a warranty or retail repair; that is why they are called Service Managers. If then, after a warranty repair a claim is bounced, it goes against just about every labour law if they try to deduct pay or not pay you for your work. An issue of payment would only happen or come close to happening once for me, and I would be working somewhere else. If it was me, and I follow everything to a tee, and management said to repair under warranty; which has happened; and it gets kicked back as non warrantable, its up to the manager to go after the customer, AND I get bumped up to retail time, providing I dotted my I's and crossed my T's. Management should have made the warranty/retail call a while ago by the sounds of it, rather than leaving the guys broken truck sitting in the back, he cannot be too happy either Sorry for the long post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchan68 Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 I have ZERO problems crossing my T's and dotting my I's (and even lower case J's too). What I DO have a problem with, is doing as such, and as you say, having them claw back my time for a repair and try and blame it on ME after I repaired a vehicle. In this particular instance, it's cut and dry that we have ourselves a case of owner negligence that the advisor is trying to ask me to put through under warranty (fraudulently obviously). And I don't give a rat's tail if the customer is happy or not either, in this instance (he's just as much a snake in my opinion if he expects me to put my neck on the line, as the warranty Nazi will be, who's going to kick back the claim if we even think of putting it through) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 The bigger question here is are you concerned about not getting paid for the job if the claim is denied? THAT is EXACTLY what concerns me. I was just re-reading the section of the ESA that covers this topic... I'm positive you have nothing to worry about... But on a sidenote, I also read that if your employer is deducting things like social club, uniforms and such, and you didn't AUTHORIZE IT IN WRITING, you can claim to get it all refunded! On ANOTHER side note... I recall once going out of my way trying to get a 6.4 claim denied due to abuse (performance mods, DPF removed, bald tires, yada, yada, yada) and (allegedly) fabricated maintenance records (all hand written with no no dates on some or mileage missing)... Nothing I did would get FOMOCO to deny the claim. They paid it with no questions asked or assessor delays... But, I am currently fighting them to pay for a sealed beam on an F-650 that had rotted terminals due to corrosion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YukonTyler Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Or was yours the shit story dealer that was making the techs wait until claims got paid before they got paid? I despise this system. Same with our front end which consistently fails to get claims sent out. Sometimes I'm left chasing for two months to get paid for jobs ... only to find that they let the RO stale date @ 60 days. I mean it's their money, too. You'd think they'd be right on top of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I would refuse to work like that. I did the work, you can pay me for it in a timely manner. Alex - I had a similar issue with a 6.0 - IDS logs showed the customer basically unplugged the fan and ran the vehicle with a phone book on the accelerator until it melted itself down, 4 days and 60 miles before it was out of warranty. I sent the freezeframe data that showed the fan RPM, fan circuit code(s), APP input of 30 percent, and 0MPH VSS. Their response was "It is unclear why APP loads are so high, please replace engine assembly and re-evaluate the APP system for faults". For those keeping score at home, it takes 27 minutes to get the oil temperature above 255 degrees on a 6.0 with the fan unhooked and partial throttle input. You can't tell me when the oil temperature goes out of range at 255 degrees, the gauge/warning light/de-rate doesn't happen. But like you said, legitimate claims get given a fine toothed comb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 I love being asked why on an engine job why I put 17 quarts of oil in an engine that has a 15 quart capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselD Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I love being asked why on an engine job why I put 17 quarts of oil in an engine that has a 15 quart capacity. Im glad I was not the only one with a example like that!! I invited the foreman to watch me and check the dipstick to prove I wasn't stealing 2 qts of oil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Clayton Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Reminds me of this thread: http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=37744#Post37744 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Another good one is why is ther 4 gallons of coolant charged out when the system capacity is only 28 quarts? My reply was "my parts department can't give me 1/2 gallon containers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Another good one is why is ther 4 gallons of coolant charged out when the system capacity is only 28 quarts? My reply was "my parts department can't give me 1/2 gallon containers. From time to time, I still get the odd "rockstar" assessor send back 6.4 radiator claims because I should not have needed 3 gallons of coolant to top off the system after the leak was repaired. I just tell them to read their own bulletins and get back to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 "Debacle" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Also - when I lived north of the 60th parallel - Ford warranty didn't like it when you had to mix coolant stronger than 50/50... Hey, dingalings...it's colder than -40 here... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YukonTyler Posted June 19, 2013 Share Posted June 19, 2013 Also - when I lived north of the 60th parallel - Ford warranty didn't like it when you had to mix coolant stronger than 50/50... Hey, dingalings...it's colder than -40 here... LOL Indeed. They also don't like the cost difference between the regular and synthetic-blend Merc V for power steering repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 We used to put Amsoil in the power steering systems, they liked that even less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Amsoil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Wasn't my choice. I don't buy or use their products in my own personal stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 My parts department keeps some "off-shore" fluids for "non-warranty" repairs. I refuse to use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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