P207F

[Keith Browning]

Seems as though this code dogs many of us and I am seeing trucks that have visited one or two other dealers trying to correct it before landing on my door step. Shoot,  I worked on one and it circled the area and visited two other dealers and THEN came back to me. I hate when people do that because you don't know what was really done and if it was done correctly.  Seems odd that most of these end up getting multiple NOx sensors and eventually filter assemblies only to have the concern continue. I have ended up replacing the DEF injector on two of the most recent trucks in my bay where the dosing measurement test was 1-5 ml over the 50ml max spec. Hot-Line never seems concerned with the readings. At this point I am not passing any DEF injector that measures 50 and above.

 

I think the jury is still out on this code. How many NOx sensors do you throw at a truck before you realize its not the sensors? Or, if it IS the sensors, how much longer is Ford going to continue to supply sensors that malfunction? I am also skeptical that many techs don't fully complete the repair by clearing the appropriate tables, inspect the SCR for crystallization and run multiple manual regens to clean them, test the DEF and inspect the entire air management system for concerns.

[Brad Clayton]

Did one Monday, it was a simple reprogram (TSB) and then perform a drive cycle. I got lucky because the truck had made it all the way down to the speed limited to 50 MPH derate, and I needed to drive it to complete an SCR drive cycle. A DEF drive cycle wouldn't address the message center.

 

Unfortunately I had about 2 hours in it and the TSB pays .7

[lmorris]

Unfortunately I had about 2 hours in it and the TSB pays .7

 

MT time...as soon as I leave the bay I am running an MT punch. "Performed WSM directed drive cycles and retest". Gets paid every time.

 

Claimed up to 1.5 hrs of driving and manaul regens and have never been kicked back.

[Matt Saunoras]

I have done two 11 cab and chassis in the past that both just needed a PCM reflash.  Last week I did a 14 pickup that, to the best of my knowledge, needed a NOX12 sensor. 

 

The only thing I know for sure is that NOX12 readings were a lot higher than NOX11 on this truck which doesn't make sense if you think about it.  I drove another 14 and NOX12 rarely got above 20 when driving normally.   After installing a new sensor on my problem truck the readings went back down to normal.  I believe I got about 1.5 MT time even though I spent nearly all day on it.  It was ESP so no TSBs were used. 

[Matt Saunoras]

Keith I reread your post that I must have skimmed over earlier.

 

Very interesting about the DEF injector over dosing. Is this in conjunction with crystallization in the SCR which reduces its overall effectiveness? I had not really thought about too much DEF being injected and that causing a concern. Now that you mention it though the last 2 dosing tests I performed (one with a new injector) left me with about 45-48 mL.

 

Also do you have any borescope pictures of a crystallized SCR? Our shop has a harbor freight borescope and I tried peeking down the injector hole with it. Didnt see much besides some jail bar looking things that did have what looked like a few clumps of crystals on them.

[8WA Sman]

From GSB G0000012...The reductant injector injects DEF into the exhaust system to convert the engine NOx gases into ammonia, water and CO2. When the system cannot properly convert the NOx gases, the PCM will set DTC P207F (Reductant Quality performance). This code is typically set due to excess NOx entering the exhaust system from a faulty EGR cooler or other upstream emissions fault and not from a fault in the reductant system. If a P207F is set by a reductant system component, there will be a DTC relating directly to that part along with the P207F.

I personally have not had to diagnose this code, I know of an '11 that has this code but the guy won't bring it by 
 One thing I noticed about NOX sensors and universal HO2S is that they use a pumping cell or cells...Got to love Ford and their calculations
 
Something from NGK https://www.ngk.de/en/products-technologies/lambda-sensors/lambda-sensor-technologies/special-sensors/nox-sensor/

[Keith Browning]

Keith I reread your post that I must have skimmed over earlier.

 

Very interesting about the DEF injector over dosing. Is this in conjunction with crystallization in the SCR which reduces its overall effectiveness? I had not really thought about too much DEF being injected and that causing a concern. Now that you mention it though the last 2 dosing tests I performed (one with a new injector) left me with about 45-48 mL.

 

Also do you have any borescope pictures of a crystallized SCR? Our shop has a harbor freight borescope and I tried peeking down the injector hole with it. Didnt see much besides some jail bar looking things that did have what looked like a few clumps of crystals on them.

 

The grid should be visible and not much dried DEF on it. Here is an overloaded SCR

 

[Keith Browning]

From GSB G0000012...The reductant injector injects DEF into the exhaust system to convert the engine NOx gases into ammonia, water and CO2. When the system cannot properly convert the NOx gases, the PCM will set DTC P207F (Reductant Quality performance). This code is typically set due to excess NOx entering the exhaust system from a faulty EGR cooler or other upstream emissions fault and not from a fault in the reductant system. If a P207F is set by a reductant system component, there will be a DTC relating directly to that part along with the P207F.

While technically correct and possible, I have yet to find an issue with any upstream components or system and believe me, once you get your ass kicked by this code you WILL start looking for EGR and other air management problems with codes or not, fluid loss and even consumption. But it is good that you bring this up. I have yet to find one in conjunction with DTC P207F and the code for me so far has been set alone. The 14's and up - "The PCM monitors selective catalytic reduction (SCR) system performance using the nitrogen oxides bank 1, sensor 1 (NOx11) sensor and the nitrogen oxides bank 1, sensor 2 (NOx12) sensor, in addition to other inputs. This DTC sets when overall NOx conversion drops suddenly." It just seems that we are fixated on the two sensors more than what is going on before them or in between them... and back to my point - how many sensors will we be told to throw in a truck and how many times will we reflash the PCM or NOx modules before we start looking elsewhere?

[batmantech]

How are you claiming M-time  when preforming a tsb?   Matt and Morris you guys stated that you have had no problems doing it. Are you guys adding a line to the ro for the m-time? 

[lmorris]

How are you claiming M-time  when preforming a tsb?   Matt and Morris you guys stated that you have had no problems doing it. Are you guys adding a line to the ro for the m-time? 

Never used a TSB for SCR issues other than for EGT sensors. If it has open recalls for Programming and there are SCR codes I get a second line added and perform the SCR diagnosis after the reprogram is done. 

[forddieseldoctor]

I got one on a 2012. Got to the point in the pinpoint test that says replace nox sensor. Ordered a sensor for monday. I don't understand why they have you do the drive cycle and work it out of idle only before you do any testing other than the dosing test and visual inspections.

 

This one had the drive to clean exhaust system message in the dash as well as the forced idle message. I drove it and it took about 10 miles for the regen to complete and another 10 miles for the nox monitor to run after which there was no codes stored. The dosing test came out to an even 50 ml and when I tested the def it showed 33% on my refractometer. I did look in with my borescope and the grate looked normal.

[Matt Saunoras]

I just got an OTC def refractometer. This was the first time I really could have used one.

[forddieseldoctor]

I think mine is a Central Tool. It's only the second time I've used it. I got it a couple of years ago after I got my butt kicked by this code on a truck that hotline was telling me what part to throw at it. I think that one got fixed by a maf sensor. And I learned the hard way that the key off for 5 minutes after the resets makes a difference.

 

I did take a couple of pictures of the grate by the dozing nozzle today, but they are still stored in my borescope at work.

[Keith Browning]

Having a DEF refractometer or tester is necessary because you always want to verify the DEF is good and rule it out. I have yet to come across any bad or contaminated DEF but I am sure the day will come.

[forddieseldoctor]

Having a DEF refractometer or tester is necessary because you always want to verify the DEF is good and rule it out. I have yet to come across any bad or contaminated DEF but I am sure the day will come.

Um... No one's saying it's not. At least not that I picked up on.

[2006]

We had a bus that kept setting the 207F code, probably once a month, even after the complete exhaust, injector, nox sensors and DEF were replaced. 

The egr cooler flow test indicated it was ok.

 

After a hotline suggestion, we removed the lower intake manifold and cleaned out all the carbon.  Theres a passage inside thats part of the egr flow that was half restricted. Lots of soot came out. Pressure washed it out. This clean engine seems to run pretty dirty.  We also replaced the egr cooler core at the same time even though it passed its test. Also replaced the plastic upper intake manifold.

 

Its been more than a few months and its been ok so far...

[8WA Sman]

once you get your ass kicked by this code

 

I personally have not had to diagnose this code, I know of an '11 that has this code but the guy won't bring it by 

If all goes as planned my kicking will start next Tue.  

[lmorris]

I am currently in the middle of a retail diagnosis. Dosing test was bang on 50 ml. Good fluid. Poked the bore-scope in and found 3 big chunks of crystallized DEF on the mixer. Ran a couple of manual regens, got the filter down to 2%. Long road test and the code never came back. Let the exhaust cool down over night and will have a look at the mixer sometime this morning to see if it cleaned it off. 

[Matt Saunoras]

^^How did that turn out? Got one here right now too.  140k miles on a 12 pickup.  Not one repair in the warranty history.

 

Edit - on mine, the reductant quality and quantity are okay from the injector but AZ11 for EGR cooler flow does not pass. 

[lmorris]

The mixer cleaned up real nice, nice long road test, code hasn't come back on. Currently finishing off the leaking oil pan and will drive it again in the morning. Final road test and no issues. 

[8WA Sman]

If all goes as planned my kicking will start next Tue.  

I think it is been long enough that it's safe to say that the fix was to reset/clear the N0x sensor tables. My guess is the moonlighter that put the N0x sensor either did not reset it or his cloned scan tool didn't actually complete the task. This diagnosis was based on the fact that based on the info I was seeing the engine had high N0x levels or for some reason the calculation was off. A 5 gas would have probably sped this up but....

[Matt Saunoras]

I just released the 12 pickup with a new EGR cooler, cleaned lower intake and a NOx sensor. It also got a DEF heater but not for that, P20B9 and P20BA were also present.

 

I'd say I put 50 miles on it post repair. No DTCs, powertrain data said the NOx monitor cleared.

 

I should post a pic of the EGR cooler and the pile of carbon I got out of the lower intake. I'd say it was 90% clogged with no EGR related codes

[lmorris]

Just finished up another one. Dosing test and quality passed, had a look in the mixer, some build up, ran manual regen(which BTW is the quickest way to exit Engine Idled mode), cleaned up but code returned. MAF was all over the place on the EGR cooler test. Air filter was collapsed and MAF was dirty, new air filter and MAF, cleaned up the hoses and air box. Reset everything and all is good so far.

 

Side note: Someone mentioned they were monitoring the NOX sensors. Which PIDS? I had NOX11 PPM up and nox monitor, NOX11 was reading around 345 on accell and averaged 70 on cruise until the monitor completed then dropped to 1 or 2 at cruise and 7-8 on acell and idle. 

[Matt Saunoras]

Yes I also noticed the NOX pids will drop after a while of driving.  Very hard to know for sure what they should be reading though. 

[lmorris]

So here is a new one for everyone. 2 weeks ago on the Friday afternoon before my 2 week holiday to Disneyland with the kids(my daughter danced in the big Dance the Magic parade in Disneyland and California Adventure, lots of fun...)back to my point, this truck comes in DEF fault, speed limited to 80 kph, P207F. They were ok with booking the truck back in when I got back, I knew I couldn't do anything by erasing the code so I left it as is. Well, fast forward to today, they brought the truck back this morning, the message is now gone, but the P207F remains. After both NOX sensors, various road tests and manual regens and drive cycles, the code remains, but no messages or MIL. Checked the EGR system as well. All good. Came across SSM 45920. Returning to customer..Let's see what happens.