Jim Warman Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 In my internet furbling (I Googled the term and was surprised to see that it IS mentioned on the 'net)... I came across this page on Spartans website... Now... I have no way of verifying beyond the shadow of a doubt right now... but I do plan on asking hotline about P167F (or can Cetane shed some light?)... don't bother looking... it isn't listed in the online PC/ED for 2010MY. I also wonder if Spartan has had their lawyers look at this statement they have boldly made.... detectability of their device is the whole thrust of this article... So... where is the old fuck going with this? Alphonse Capone.... they couldn't get him on murder.... they couldn't get him on racketeering.... they couldn't even get him for supplying alcohol during prohibition. They got him for tax evasion.... The spirit of Spartans device is to afford the owner monetary compensation where monetary compensation may not be warranted. To me... this is fraudulent behaviour.... But, I guess that part will be a matter for the courts to decide, if and when it comes to that. And we all realize that monetary considerations always gather more interest than moral obligations. Eventually, emissions control legislation may not be upheld by what the EPA wants. The manufacturers might well be the impetus that drives some of these mods off our streets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 27, 2009 Share Posted September 27, 2009 This is interesting reading. And Spartans claims are in my opinion like yours: fraudulent. This is a blatant poke in the face of the manufacturers and Ford in particular. The problem is that this level of game playing is not necessary because Ford will not back us up in the field... at least in my experience they seem very reluctant to check out any reasonable claim that a vehicle owner has damaged the product and taken steps to hide his abuse of the vehicle or negligence. Undoubtedly we have all seen those "Modifications" warning decal under the hood? May as well rip them off the radiator support because they are meaningless. Considering the effort Ford makes to protect their brand and their bottom dollar I wonder if they would find that statement enough reason to go after Spartan. The following statement also raises the question of did Spartan reverse engineer Ford's programming? Our tuning devices use a proprietary process when saving the stock tune and downloading our custom tuning to "emulate" the presence of a Ford factory programming device. In doing so, the presence of the "P167F" diagnostic code is prevented. Likewise, when a vehicle is returned back to stock using our device, multiple computer modules are internally reset to prevent and delete other tell-tale evidence of aftermarket tuning. This gives our Spartan Phalanx programming device the highest level of undetectablilty available on the market, helping to preserve your factory warranty and preventing warranty denial by Ford. As Ford truck owners ourselves, our crew members share the concern about preserving factory warranty and understand the stress involved when choosing an aftermarket device in this respect. This is why we take every measure to protect our customers' confidentiality and spend tremendous development effort to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 An interesting point about reverse engineering the software... I don't recall seeing a EULA attached to any of my purchases - but my days of buying "brand spanking new" are long gone.... I came across the mention of this in "the monkey house" and I did post a response there... I can imagine the reception I will get.... I guess "shit" is one of those things that happens more in some lives than others. This could be the next step in anarchy... or we may be approaching Omni Consumer Products intro of the SUX2000. I get the feeling we are seeing an "us" against "them" mentality rising... again.... The bad thing is that we desparately need to achieve a rational, logical even ground. Without this one side or the other will "win" and the world, in general, will suffer. (I'm beginning to wonder if "Capitalism", "nationalism", "Communism". "ismism"... all of these aren';t being replaced by a new "religion"... consumerism. Every dog for himself... but "I" want protection.... If you can figure out my penchant for digression... let me know. Do me a favour... (that's Canajun for "favor").. check with your hotline (I have no doubts they are one and the same as ours... I'm getting paranoid if we both get readings from the same script) re P167F. ... would a really "off the wall" fraud settlement include being forced to buy Ford products for the rest of your life? Modern society is rife with lunacy... A song with it's overwhelming lyric being "she fucking hates me". I like the A&W Mama burger.... but why does it taste BETTER without the pattie? daily videos on break.com (how many trips to the emergency room begin with "Hey guys... watch this"). The world is in a.... I'm not sure if there is a word to describe it... state of flux we have never seen - not in my short life span - what could happen next? Movies like "JackAss" and "Borat" bring out the pessimist in me... Yes... I now have to enter my crawl space and deal with wet insulation... wish me luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Digging around the website a bit more... I find this .... tee-hee-hee... This - pay close attention to the last point in the ummmmmmmmm propoganda. And this notice the header states "will" and not "can" ... borderline misleading... or flagrant? My God... I wish suicide was legal.... Suicide... did you realize that suicide is a unique crime? You can be jailed for "attempting" suicide... nobody has ever been incarcerated for successfully achieving the act.... I know... you are jealous because the voices are talking to me... and not to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 You mean this statement? Spartan Diesel Technologies will not be held liable for consequential or incidental damages resulting from, but not limited to, the sale, installation or use of any of the products it sells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 28, 2009 Author Share Posted September 28, 2009 Yeppers.... I think, if we spent some due diligence, that this statement would be uttered in couched terms on each and every web presence we might visit. Is it time that we, as technicians, addressed the continuing use of these devices? Might we affect the future of the world and/or it's eco-structure? How big are YOUR balls, Mister Technician? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 And you are suggesting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vloney Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Its not in the pced, look at the workshop manual, at the top "master dtc charts" p167f is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 ^^^^ I don't see it in there, what vehicle are you pulling up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 Go to the workshop manual - on the top left under "Qiock Links" you will see the master DTC list... P167F refers you to the transmission section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted September 28, 2009 Share Posted September 28, 2009 I just did so for a 2010 F-350..wasn't there... Not in the PCED either. Maybe the 'Muricans have different WSM info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshbuys Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 P167F Non-OEM Calibration Detected TCM REFER to Section 307-01 (diesel engine only). It's in a 2008 F-250, but not a 2009 or 2010 F-250. Interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vloney Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 P167F Non-OEM Calibration Detected TCM REFER to Section 307-01 (diesel engine only). It's in a 2008 F-250, but not a 2009 or 2010 F-250. Interesting! When the 09s were first coming out, I looked for p167f in both the 08 and the 09. At that time it was there in both. Looks like they took it away from us. THE MYSTERY DEEPENS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cetane Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I guess I will add to the mystery. I can find no reference to P167F in any 6.4L-specific OBD documents. It is listed in my master code list as a diesel only code but no specifics. I havent had time to check the trans documentation. Long before the 6.4L first came out there was some talk about one byte of the VID block being changed by whatever equipment was programming the ECU but I have since lost that document and I dont remember much about it. That could be what triggers the code but it doesnt turn up in any documentation I can find. It wouldnt surprise me if it was a valid code though, things like that are sometimes hidden even from mainstream calibrators. PATS is done that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted September 30, 2009 Author Share Posted September 30, 2009 And you are suggesting? When I first "penned" the question about the size of ones bollocks, I imagined it would remain a rhetorical question.... but, since you have breached that idea... let's explore a couple of ideas... First, I'm sure you will agree that our trade is comprised of those that have a fierce pride in what they do... when we close the hood, it is almost as if the vehicle were, once again, brand spanking new.... no "African American temporary repairs" (Apparently, only Dr Dre will be rewarded for using the "N" bomb... the rest of us will be drawn and quartered). It is also comprised of those practicing a version of the worlds oldest profession... "Hey, sailor... wanna get lucky? I'll do ANYTHING for a buck...". And the hordes trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea... There are a LOT of techs (I can feel it in my heart) that would dearly love to look a customer in the eye and say that their chosen course of action isn't "right"... but they can't because the guy down the street is hungry enough to do anything for a buck.... Right is good... cheap is still going to win. Anyway... this is our industry too.. not just ATRA... not just NADA... not just - shit... there's too many groups to name.. all of them special interest and none of them are US. (FWIW, I used two entities off the top of my head 'just because'... ATRA is Automatic Transmission Rebuilders Assoc. .... NADA is Northern Alberta Dealers Assoc... But the industry is peppered with these special interest groups. What is so FUCKING AMAZING is that none of them represent me and you....). None of them address doing it "right" versus doing it "wrong"... So... with this idea in mind... What about a lobby group? Educate the politicians about those that willfully defeat and delete emissions devices.... Educate the public... their efforts are being squandered by those seeking personal benefit. Do the politicians even embrace or acknowledge emissions 'modifications' as a concern? A lobby group that would seek the ability deny anyone contravening either legisaltion or accepted indusry practice the ability to continue the practice? This is going to be a killer project... in more ways that one.... This is to broad a subject to broach in one little message... but there are right ways to do things... "accepted" ways to do things.... wrong ways to do things and even some wrong things have become "acceptable" simply because we have the 'ability' to do them... I am ostracized... abused.... discounted... and insulted because of my beliefs on many venues.... Gee... life sucks... Until we grab the bull by the horns.... until we force OUR branch of the industry into some form of professionalism.. we will forever be looking over our shoulder... we will forever compromise our RETAIL work... because the "hooker" down the street will steal our work if we don't play HIS game... Look around... load range D tires on a Super Duty? Inappropriate tire repairs and valve stems? What else are we missing and how does it affect your safety, the safety of your customers or the safety of your loved ones? Rushing a job so hard that we miss cracked and broken frames and X-members... missing fasteners... The public is looking to us for guidance (once they can get past what we allow charlatans and thieves to plant in their heads) in logical auto repair and maintenance... in reducing their cost per mile through proper maintenance and timely repairs... meanwhile, we are too fucking busy using both hands to cover our asses from the onslaught of the scam artists we should be putting out of business... Wow... what an off topic fucking rant.... But it remains... we can continue to allow ourselves to be directed and controlled by the unscrupulous, unknowing lunatic fringe in this trade... or we can become the trendsetters... the squeaky clean, law abiding, eco-lovers that the future needs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmorris Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 So does this have anything to do with the message to connect to the network before doing a reprogram? I get this often and I am positive I have the calibration needed on the IDS. Besides, it takes very little time to download. Is it possible the IDS also records this code without us knowing, and they get randomly checked? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Imagine the mileage we could get if the EPA didn't exsist? If cars didn't "have" to weigh 1k lbs more than my 82 Mercury LN7 that got 30+ MPG but only weighed 2800... Now we have so many safety regulation istalled "options", that at least 30% of our mileage is used carrying around stuff that not all of us want... Guess I'm a bit off-topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Imagine the mileage we could get if the EPA didn't exsist? If cars didn't "have" to weigh 1k lbs more than my 82 Mercury LN7 that got 30+ MPG but only weighed 2800... Now we have so many safety regulation istalled "options", that at least 30% of our mileage is used carrying around stuff that not all of us want... Guess I'm a bit off-topic... I think you mean if the NHTSA didn't exist. I would highly recommend "Unsafe At Any Speed" by Ralph Nader. Through the late 50s and even into the early 60s, motorists risked decapitation as their hoods were not designed with crumple indicators and initiators at the hinges. Seat belts - supplemental restraints - knee bolsters - collision avoidance electronics - daytime running lights. I am openly amazed at people that feel cars should net be made safer and, in the event of an event - more survivable... I think those that feel like that should go out there and help their local EMS scrape some of these victims up off the road... Just sayin'.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseldoc Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I completely agree with you Jim. I am on the fire department in my home town. We just completed are recertification for auto extrication, which we unfortunately average using about once a month. Without seat belts, air bags, and all the safety items in cars I can only imagine the horrific things we as fire and rescue would find on a much more frequent basis. My stomach can handle seeing mangled people but you dont quickly lose the image in your head from such an experience. If you are not a seat belt user I strongly urge you to change your practices. The vehicles get heavier and faster and people increasingly more distracted while piloting these things down the road at you and your family. . . . . something to consider. I for one am glad to get 1 or 2 mpg less by hauling around the safety "junk" and emissions "crap" knowing that my wife and friends are safer for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I heard a blurb on the radio this morning, something about the amount of car accident related deaths is lower now than 30 years ago, even though there are one hundred times more accidents now. (not to mention cars on the road.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredsvt Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 A coworker of mine didn't or wouldn't believe that a modern car is safer than an older car. He's a "full frame" person. Anything with body on frame just has to be stronger. I showed him the IIHS video of the '59 Chevy against the '09 Malibu. I then asked him, which car he'd rather be in. He sat there in shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Warman Posted April 4, 2011 Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 So does this have anything to do with the message to connect to the network before doing a reprogram? I get this often and I am positive I have the calibration needed on the IDS. Besides, it takes very little time to download. Is it possible the IDS also records this code without us knowing, and they get randomly checked? Just a thought. Hook up to a vehicle and do an OASIS Quick Start - I think they now call it "read VIN and DTCs". IDS lights up like a damned Xmas tree. I am sure that there is shit being sent down the pipe that we can't imagine. My own desktop PC is chock full of *.log files, *.tmp files and variations on the theme. I am sure that there are modules on the modern automobile that have these sorts of information just waiting for the mothership to glean them. Call me paranoid if you like... after understanding what the VIDblock is all about and seeing what happens when programming SYNC... You'd have to be a fool to think that "they" aren't gathering nformation. It wasn't that long ago that we were replacing the cluster on an vehicle not well known to us. One of the affected items was the odometer reading. I asked hotline if there was a way to look at miles or kms (at this time, Dodge had such a PID available to anyone with a suitable scan tool). I was told that they felt if we could see it, we could change it. And now.... Thank God I have my back-up plan.... Available to all HERE . Happy constructing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbriggs Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Have you guys noticed lately that ids stores you old sessions even if you select delete when closing? If you plug into the same truck a few weeks later it pops up and asks if you would like to restore the old session or start a new one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Browning Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Yes and it is very annoying. I write up repairs with great details and print outs. I don't need to bring up old diagnostics which can confuse me if I am in a mode where I may not be paying as close attention as I should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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