Replacing headgaskets with studs installed

Mekanik · March 6, 2012

Can the cylinder headgaskets be replaced in-vehicle if it is equipped with studs? It looks like I could nemove the nuts and then the studs (with the exception of the one in the left rear)with the heads installed and it shouldn't be much different than replacing the headgaskets when equipped with bolts, right? Posted Image

I thought I would ask because I've never installed studs or had one apart that was equipped with studs.

Also do the studs and nuts need to be replaced with the headgaskets?

ablokzyl · March 6, 2012

Yes they can be done with the cab on. The drivers side rear is a pain but it is do able. No they do not need to be replaced but when you put them back together use APR lube.....Lots of it!

Mekanik · March 6, 2012

Thanks a lot, I bet the torque spec is a lot less too.

This engine is heavily modified and the headgaskets are leakin REALLY bad. I'm pretty surprised how bad they're leaking knowing that this thing already has studs.

ablokzyl · March 6, 2012

The spec is around 210 to 230 lbft......I cant remember the exact spec

Mbl35 · March 6, 2012

I think its 70-140-210. Pretty sure its that, you can call arp to verify.

When you put the studs back only bottom them down and slightly snug, dont

rail them down tight.

mchan68 · March 6, 2012

I think its 70-140-210. Pretty sure its that, you can call arp to verify.

When you put the studs back only bottom them down and slightly snug, dont

rail them down tight.

I just did a set last week, and the instructions called for three equal steps of 80 ft-lbs. increments, so I did it 80-160-240.

Matt Saunoras · March 6, 2012

This engine is heavily modified and the headgaskets are leakin REALLY bad. I'm pretty surprised how bad they're leaking knowing that this thing already has studs.

hmmm, that's interesting, I wonder if it's got the "black onyx" gaskets installed

Mekanik · March 7, 2012

Originally Posted By: Mekanik

This engine is heavily modified and the headgaskets are leakin REALLY bad. I'm pretty surprised how bad they're leaking knowing that this thing already has studs.

hmmm, that's interesting, I wonder if it's got the "black onyx" gaskets installed

Yeah? Tell me more.

Matt Saunoras · March 8, 2012

Well I read the public message boards a lot because I own one of these things and it's coming out now that those black gaskets are no good. A lot of people have them installed with studs because they are being sold through the performance stores as an upgrade. Very recently there are a lot of repeat headgasket failures turning up on the boards, more than I can count....and all with those gaskets.

Mike knows what I'm talking about, he's read all the same stories.

Fredsvt · March 8, 2012

Matt, are the "black onyx" gaskets MLS or a composite gasket? A shop next door to us, did a set of these w/studs and the heads were severely machined, and rough looking to boot.

I went and took a look at the truck when it was apart and wasn't impressed with the machine work, or the gaskets. These were a black MLS gasket, I can't remember exactly what he called them. They were recommended to him by a 6.0 "hot rodder" as the truck has an Edge box on 6 all the time.

It popped the head gaskets originally after blowing an egr cooler, and running repeatedly low on water. It had the bores and deck rainbow blued from getting so hot. A huge mess, IMO.

Clark · March 8, 2012

Coated MLS headgaskets are nothing new. Companies like Cosworth (you know, the guys that make Formula 1 engines) use them in everything and they are genuinely good for performance applications. Ive been very curious about these "black onyx" gaskets for a long time, and short of actually making a phone call, I cant find any specific information about them. Are they die cut or laser cut? Is the material pre-coated? What the hell is the actual coating? The lack of actual information makes me think that the gaskets themselves are a joke, but Im also curious how much of it has to do with them usually being installed by some hot rodder yahoo, and not someone at a dealer that knows what they're doing.

Fredsvt · March 9, 2012

Current F1 engines don't use head gaskets, per se, fire rings and individual o rings for each part of the head to block they want sealed.

Most F1 engines now don't even use bearings, everything is DLC, and with the insane oil pressures and temperatures they run, that keeps the parts from touching.

It's amazing what they do with those things. An engine that won't even turn at room temperature, that at their power peak with the 3.0 V10s, the Hondas made 1100-1200 hp at just a hair under 20,000 rpm. Cosworth broke the 20,000 rpm barrier with their V8 a few years ago. A shame they are limited to only 18k now.

I wish I saw the gaskets the guy next door used, I've seen the pics here of what looked like a black composite graphite type gasket, not sure if that was the "onyx" gasket or not.

Matt Saunoras · March 9, 2012

The "black onyx" gaskets are MLS gaskets. There are also black composite gaskets out there too. I haven't been able to find out any information about why either gasket should be considered an upgrade over oem.

The general consenus is, use OEM gaskets.

lmorris · March 9, 2012

The last set I did on a pumped up 6L we had the heads sent out to have fire rings installed, used factory gaskets and bolts. We see the guy every so often and he is pleased as punch. Been over 2 years now.

ETS · March 9, 2012

Hey Fred, Ever been in a Boss 429? No gaskets there either! Posted Image

Fredsvt · March 10, 2012

Hi Mike

Never had a Boss 429 apart, have a neighbor that has several, along with about a half dozen 427 cammer motored late 60s Mustangs. Quite the squeeze, and SOUND.

Ok, the guy next door did use the "black onyx" gaskets, I did see them, black coated MLS. Haven't seen the truck back yet, but I feel it will self destruct from the multiple overheats it saw. He did this over the nose, cab on. He didn't even take the whole cooling stack or bumper off. Seemed WAY to painful for me.

Aaron · March 12, 2012

I believe with the new updated installation lube (WHICH YOU MUST USE TO ACHIEVE THE PROPER TORQUE) the spec is 210ft-lb.

Call ARP, they will likely send you a couple packets of it for free - the studs are warrantied for life so I'd think they'd fire ya off a couple packets of lube to help things along.

(Is it just me, or does the last bit of that statement sound wrong...)

Brad Clayton · March 13, 2012

It do sound a bit dirty......"I need a price check on this bottle of K-Y Jelly at register 10 please".

Clark · March 13, 2012

Current F1 engines don't use head gaskets, per se, fire rings and individual o rings for each part of the head to block they want sealed.

Most F1 engines now don't even use bearings, everything is DLC, and with the insane oil pressures and temperatures they run, that keeps the parts from touching.

It's amazing what they do with those things. An engine that won't even turn at room temperature, that at their power peak with the 3.0 V10s, the Hondas made 1100-1200 hp at just a hair under 20,000 rpm. Cosworth broke the 20,000 rpm barrier with their V8 a few years ago. A shame they are limited to only 18k now.

I wish I saw the gaskets the guy next door used, I've seen the pics here of what looked like a black composite graphite type gasket, not sure if that was the "onyx" gasket or not.

I wasnt trying to imply anything about F1 engines, just saying that coated MLS headgaskets are produced and used by many companies that clearly make good quality, highly engineered parts, and are not a bad thing when done properly. I just doubt that the ones currently available for the 6.0l are done properly, and I think itd be a good market for a well known/well equipped company to step in and make a quality product.

I always like checking out the old 2 strokes the old timers are always tearing apart. They use the same individual fire ring/o-ring system. Ive heard through fairly reliable sources that Cosworth also uses individual fire rings/o-rings in some of their more potent production-based engines.

Fredsvt · March 14, 2012

I agree about any MLS gasket, if done right is a good thing.

A long while ago I read it costs significantly more to engineer and make the MLS gaskets. Makes you wonder how an aftermarket company sells a MLS gasket, coated or not, for an affordable price. Maybe a factory gasket coated, then resold?

It's really rare anymore to hear about a head gasket issue when the engine they're on is machined correctly and has proper clamp load across the gasket. It seems with the 6.0, it had both issues, poor machining and not the greatest clamp load on a motor "hot rodded" as Ford wanted. What was it, ~100hp over an International version in one of their trucks?

I've seen a few stupidity killed Honda engines that melted out rings, and even lifted the head, but the gaskets never blew.