BrunoWilimek Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Was it studded or did it have stock bolts in it? Only a WIENER would do retail heads and not do studs? (Don't take offense to that, it may have happened before you were a member on here.) Just for the record, I have never studded any heads that I have done. The other diesel tech here has, but I have it from a good source at FoMoCo that they looked into the benefits of studs vs bolts and determined that the blocks were not strong enough to take the extra clamping force of the studs without distortion. I have only ever had to redo one set of heads that were previously re-gasketed and never had one of mine come back. I use white Roloc bristle discs(rubber) and a very long 3/4 drive ratchet to the tty bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 I am digging this thread back out. I am doing a set of headgaskets right now on a truck that has already had headstuds installed about 50k miles ago. It has pretty clearly lifted the right head again. The left headgasket looked fine. I just got the cab off and the heads off today so I didn't really get a chance to clean anything up and check for flatness. All I know is the heads and block were roloc'd to hell and back. The heads are getting sent off to be machined next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy57 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Towing with higher tuner setting will fail a studded OE head gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amailloux Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 If the block is roloced to hell, how do you fix that? The surface rma has to be pretty good for MLS gaskets. I have sanded with 500 grit and wd-40 to get some stuff off, but roloc marks can get pretty deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 I will know more tomorrow how bad it is once I clean it up. I can see the grinder marks easily but I'm not sure how deep they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spdracer Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I gave done 3 sets of head gaskets that were already studded with the "black onyx" gaskets. I have always used Ford gaskets with studs. We have a machine shop that does our heads when needed and we have had them resurfaced with the valves in the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Yeah re doing black onyx gaskets seems to be SOP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Bruene Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Just for the record, I have never studded any heads that I have done. The other diesel tech here has, but I have it from a good source at FoMoCo that they looked into the benefits of studs vs bolts and determined that the blocks were not strong enough to take the extra clamping force of the studs without distortion. Old topic, I know... But I have heard the same thing from a Blue Diamond trainer, an IH FSR and a source at Ford. I refuse to use studs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 Well the aftermarket is studding 6.4s now too and I have read somewhere where the stud holes are cracking into water jackets and allowing coolant to leak out around the stud. That I can believe but I have never heard of that or any other problems related to head studs installed on a 6.0. We all know it would be cost prohibitive to redesign the 6.0 headbolts to a stud design. If international says it warps the block we have to either believe them.... or not... but either way they just got themselves out of any liability. The 6.4 uses a similar block size as the 6.0 but it has larger M16 headbolts with more clamping force, it has already proven it will handle much more cylinder pressure without lifting the heads. These hot rod diesel guys know, they have to pay to play, we won't warranty any of this stuff but we won't turn the work down either. I will stud my truck when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselD Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 I have yet to stud a 6.0, I have redone others work in them however. Typically its due to a poor install. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 The block is clean, I scotch brited it this morning and while there are still some roloc marks they aren't as bad as I thought. The deck is flat too, I don't have .001 anywhere on the surface. I sent the heads out to be resurfaced so all I can do is take it from there. I am installing new pushrods in this engine also. I will try and measure them and snap a few pics if they are indeed shorter like I posted about before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 Okay I did get the whole story. The short version is I put an injector in this truck 5k miles ago. I did notice while driving it that it didn't feel like it was on stock tuning but the cust says it was. Didn't think anything of it. Customer still says this this thing is stock and its rarely ever turned up because he tows a lot with it. Come to find the turbo was stuck and the oil seal is starting to leak possibly indicating an overspeed condition. The cust finally says this truck regularly makes 30+ pounds of boost. Well it shouldn't if its stock. Case closed. Also the new pushrods are noticeably shorter, unfortunately I have no way to measure them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Damn, I just put some in this week and did have the means to measure them, but didn't. They are noticeably shorter though, can eyeball it almost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 3, 2013 Author Share Posted December 3, 2013 I've heard the number .050" thrown around but I can't remember who told me that. Based on my eye-o-meter alone I think that is a good estimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I've missed the reasoning for the shorter pushrods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 3, 2013 Author Share Posted December 3, 2013 I think we all have. In all the articles I've read Ford has never mentioned why. I did start a new thread about it here but it appears not much is known about the subject http://www.forddoctorsdts.com/topic/4953-length-differences-in-60-pushrods-new-vs-old/ I was told why they were changed by a reputable engine rebuilder but I can't confirm or deny the info. Supposedly there are a number of 6.0s out there that will hang the valves open under very high engine loads and high RPM causing the vehicle to have a random misfire. This is from the lifters pumping up and not allowing enough slack in the valve train, the valves can actually hang open slightly not allowing the combustion process to complete. I am also told that if lifter preload is excessive it can cause the lifter to internally bottom out. When the force of compression closes the valves the lifter will hammer itself into the cam either causing it to come apart or start to flat spot. Lifter preload should have been checked at the factory when the engine was assembled and it's really not going to change much over time unless something else in the valvetrain was changed (resurfacing heads changes geometry). This is why you should not mix up rockers and pushrods like the WSM warns. I figure at the very least (even though I cannot measure preload) I can counteract the missing cylinder head surface by installing the new shorter the pushrods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristopherH Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I have had several sets of heads "surfaced" and pressure checked by a local machine shop if there is any question on the surface or if they need valve work. He said that he has done hundreds of 6.0 liter heads with no problem. I have not checked to see exactly how much he removes, but he says that it is very minimal. I know what the WSM says about this, but I like the new flat clean surface. So far, I have not ran into any problems with valve train geometry. I have studded many 6.0s--works fine. I have also seen repeat failures on heavy loaded or modified trucks. I learned never to use black onyx gaskets--just redid a set that a customer had installed 12,000 miles ago. From what I hear, they are known to be good for about a year or so. Use ford gaskets and ARPs--and make sure everything else is working properly (turbo, VGT, EBP, etc. ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 I've had .007" taken off 2 sets of heads now and....knock on wood....both are okay so far. The set I did last week was very nicely done. I would prefer to have the less is more approach to machining heads but if they need resurfaced, there's usually a reason why. this is the set from last week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Mutter Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 So now that most of the 6.0 trucks that are coming in for work have high mileage, do all you guys send the heads out to get pressure tested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blown99 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Every 6.0 head that I take off gets sent out to be checked. I have had one set ever, that did not need to be cut. We take .002" off at a time to get them flat. Typically we end up with .007-.009" off to get them flat. We have had heads right from the parts dept warped out of spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktmlew Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Every 6.0 head that I take off gets sent out to be checked. I have had one set ever, that did not need to be cut. We take .002" off at a time to get them flat. Typically we end up with .007-.009" off to get them flat. We have had heads right from the parts dept warped out of spec. What do they do as far as a "valve job"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
run6.0run Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hey guys,, my machine shop is a pretty close friend so I've got some videos of it. Those all were fairly low mileage engines,, the valves were all tight. He charges me 700 for a total valve job. Hard to justify on engines with under 150k. I have been seeing 5 as the number that most get cut. All of them are on the road now. He did a block and heads on a different truck. 6 on the heads n 3 on the block. Holy crap I was worried. I spun it by hand in a silent shop before installing. Lol. .009 worked for that engine without recessing. I was going by the 8 number,, but hard to trash the heads for .001. That's an expensive thou huh. Lol in multiple ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morrow Posted September 25, 2014 Share Posted September 25, 2014 can you reuse the studs and nuts or do they need to be replaced also? this is the first time doing head gaskets with studs in it already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Saunoras Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 I have reused studs several times in the past with no issues. Remember there are several different brands of studs out there. ARP is what is in probably 90% of trucks. These studs do require a special assembly lube to get the required amount of clamping force per the torque spec. If possible get some ARP assembly lube before tackling these studs. An ARP stud will have a 3/16" internal hex in the stud. The nuts are 11/16" twelve point and get torqued in three steps to 210 ft/lbs I have also used A1 technologies brand studs before too. These are a higher tensile strength stud and require less torque to get the same clamping force. The stud has a 1/4" internal hex and an 11/16" twelve point nut. There are several different alloys (17-22 or H11) out there and the torque varies from 160-170 ft/lbs depending. If you are redoing the studs in a hotrod truck you need to look closely at the heads. Determine where the gasket is blown and make sure it doesn't match up with a gasket impression, mark or low spot on the heads or block. If you have a machine shop you trust you can mill a few thousands off the heads to get them flat again. You can't go too far though because valve recession from the factory is already on the low end of the spec. One more thing, if you can sell them, put in 16 new pushrods, they are a revised length to decrease the chance of overloading a lifter. Chances are if you look hard enough you'll find a few that are bent. Most guys don't even look, just jam them in a box with some holes in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyf Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 May I ask what the tsb number is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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